Wow I don't post for three days and I miss an entire thread. I have met Bruce Petrin and agree that he knows the difference. Pat is a respected member and a PAYING one that keeps this site alive. Consideration should be given to those that support over "ghost" members, especially ones that trash this forum on other sites. Again Dave I feel that you and most of the moderators do a good shop. It is thankless one but this thread could have been handled better IMO. cheers, Ryan