UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Interesting Repro

This repro was posted from a member at WAF.

I have never seen this particular reproduction Army before. Other sabers with the reversed swas have been the subject of debate in the past, but I do not recall ever seeing this one. Tag says it a Voos. Id like to see the maker mark. Interesting.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2222805#post2222805

What do the rest of you think on this one? The brass casting really doesn't seem legit. Overall, reversed swas aside, I still don't like this one. Patina even seems wrong.

Notice how sharp some of the edges appear. The lower postion of the d-guard, close to where it meets the crossguard, really looks like it was machined. Casting on the backstrap looks funky as well. The hilt almost looks like it was laquered as well. I really dont like this one.

The last saber we discussed with the reversed swas was certainly more believable as a mis-cast model than this one.

Compare this sword with the ugly eagle and backward swastika to the Voos dovehead currently shown in the for sale section. This sword appears to be a copy of the Voos dovehead sword from the photographs.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/748105472/m/4830091215

This is a legit piece. Voos somehow let out several models with a backwards swaz.
I know of at least 3 with this feature.

Here's an interesting discussion regarding these Voos-pattern swords.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/817092573/m/7150072594

Fab,
You think it's a legit saber? It looks pretty rough in alot of ways. Not quite the quality id expect from Voos.

The saber that was linked, I remember its discussion. I like it more than I like this one, yet still, id probably avoid both.

Even if it were agreed upon that both of these sabers are legit, one may have a tough time unloading it down the road. I'll keep my distance and let those more comfortable take a chance.

Looks fine to me also, I know the reversed swas throws up alot of debate but the quality compared to the Chinese fakes is far too good. Also as far as I am aware this reversed swas anomally appears on various Voos pattern swords only which in my opinion is favourable as to authenticity.
This one also has the centre punched swas typical of Voos production, not the prettiest I agree but I would let it in the front door .

Has to be post war. The Nazis would never tolerate a reversed swastika.. Think!!!!

JMHO

MW

The link that was posted here by Foxart is from my sword , this sword I personally got from the original owner in Germany , together with some other stuff.
The one posted by Baron looks the same , exept for beeing a dove head instead of a lionhead .
Sell the sword to me , I am interested.

A period piece IMO. Quite often there is no explanation as to why some imperfections exist--but they do.
There seems to be a trend to not believe anything unusual. Unfortunate IMO.
In many cases rare items are discredited without any basis except opinion and disregard for information provided to the contrary by experienced collectors who saw these items come out of the woodwork selling for almost nothing.

quote:

There seems to be a trend to not believe anything unusual.

A reversed swastika goes beyond unusual, it defies logic and basic common sense..

With all the labor involved in the casting of these hilts, do you think a cast with a reversed swastika just slipped by unnoticed? Not only that, someone actually produced a hilt casting and completed the entire sword.. Why? And why are there so few examples? Illogical, especially under the reign of the Third Reich..

I have twenty years collecting experience, and that's plenty... I have seen post war items come out of the woodwork, from Veteran sources..

I always keep an open mind, but trend more toward logic...

JMHO

Mike

Well--I have over 50--and these swords have been around a long time. Mike--To use your own logic--why would someone go to all the trouble to make a fake and then reverse the swaz and not notice --and why are there only a very few? Reproers tend to flood the market with their stuff.
There are many things that just have no answer for many years and then we find a photo or a period reference. Many questions are unanswered and may never be answered.
In this case though I think you will find that the majority of the world's serious experienced sword collectors accept this type sword as being period. Ugly ? Yes-- Would I want one? No.-- but if I was a serious sword collector--Yes I would.
When it comes to Third Reich stuff, it has been my experience that there often is NO LOGIC and the idea that everything German is perfect is just untrue.

Yep,

I am completely aware of everything you have stated above.. This isn't rocket science and even "serious experienced" collectors have been wrong in the past..

Here's my two bits: It is common knowledge that the post war German economy had been destroyed and it is also known that various producers continued to ply their wares simply to survive. One possible explanation for the existence of the reversed swastika anomaly is a post war anti-nazi statement on swords produced as souvenirs for post war occupation forces. That would account for the smaller numbers and the appropriate aging..

Not everything German is perfect, but the Germans of the TR period were pretty sensitive about their swastikas...

JMHO

Is the sword for sale?
Rob.

Rob,

You will have to click this link and contact one of those fellows at WAF.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2222805#post2222805

Thanks Mike !
Rob.

Mike, I understand and sympathize with the reluctance to assume that anything but perfection came from German blade makers. But the fact is that some makers had problems in the 19th century with blade making - and in the 20th some makers turned out lesser quality bladed sidearms.

To quote from an earlier thread: � I seriously doubt that whomever was running the Voos company intentionally had swords made with backwards swastikas. If Voos had intended for swords to have reverse swastikas then every sword by Voos would be the same. They are not. More likely the senior or head mold maker at the time died, retired, was called into the army. Or for some other reason a partially trained apprentice had to fill in trying ..........�

The point being a less skilled worker making a mold pattern could create a backwards swastika mold thinking it would be correctly oriented once it was cast. And (IMO) did not want to go to the effort to make a new master pattern. FP

Here are a few pics of 2 similar Voos.

Notice the different ferrules

Another pic

Last one

George, I certainly see the satriking similarities between langets and the sharp D-guard edge that I had pointed out. However, the overall quality of casting seems somehow lacking on the saber in question. The overall quality seems nill in comparison with both the Voos sabers you've pictured and certainly the Voos sabers in my collection.

Not only does the backward national symbol scare me away, but I guess the general quality of the saber as well. If the overall quality of the saber was better, it would be more convincing to me even with the backward swas. The indention in the symbol does not really have any bearing for me.

I'd still shy away from these, even if they are a rare bird. Just my feeling and level of comfort.

Nice swords by the way George!

Interesting that the reverse swaz has the same indent in the middle as Fabs obviously good sword.

Could be as Frogprince stated that Voos was short handed.Notice the Pack ferrule on the dovehead.
Definetley have noticed with Voos swords,the blade is NOT polished "well" before plating. Usually see grinder marks!
Old Emil sure made some funky stuff!!!

Yep, I noticed that ferrule as well. Interesting thread and worthy of a good read.

Just a note to Houston's remark about there being a "flood" of repros of one kind when they are made. This has not been true of etched bayonets thru the years. The repros have dripped out one'sy two'sy not in great numbers as Houston states. The newest examples have come from the Czech Republic within the last year and are only one to a customer. They are good enough to apparently fool even some of you 50 year old bayonet collectors as in the thread featuring the pictured attachment below. $ 550.00 what a steal...are you kidding.

I Love This Stuff
Von Ryan

Wayne, I notice the bayo has all the earmarks of a Pack including the A. Seyson distributor mark. Is it the Etch thats faked or the entire bayonet???

Barry,

The fault here is the etch, and etch alone. It was applied directly to an original pre-45 Pack bayonet to fool most of us. The first redflag on this piece is to know that it came out of the Czech Republic. ANYTHING that comes from there should be screaming "examine me closely"!!
Now before I get an onslaught of "I'm so wrong" and I don't know what I'm talking about, from the 50 years in the hobby guys, mail I am not saying that nothing good comes from there, but it is a hotbed of reproduction production. Now there are certainly other redflags on this example, remember my three strikes rule, but there is an obvious big mistake. Compare it to the ONLY short Pack with an oval etch that I believe, is 100% real, the piece in Weinand's book with the Panzer on the obverse. The redflag should stand out at you though it didn't to Ron incredibly.

As these are the most up-to-date reproductions now going on so I would not like to reveal more of the redflags within the etch itself. Besides, a "hands on" examination must be done before knowing for sure it's a repro. If the repro makers knew of the things to look for they might correct themselves then we won't know at all. After all they are putting Pack etches now on Pack bayonets. Scary hugh???

I Love This Stuff
Von Ryan