UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum SS HEAD WEAR

So still confused. Is the general view this cap is original? Or in better terms played with? As to Rons descriptions, that on WAF and THIS ON GDC, my old Grandfather, plus Papa, both teachers in "proper Chemists" would be horrified with the perscription writing. could this be, "BDH, or TDH".THE MESEARMENTS, FROM OR OLD SET OF WEIGHTS, WE USE SCRUPLES, could leed us into a vertial mine field. But back to the main chase, "an old motel buy".

Who love it should love it how doesn't like it should't like it. I just wonder and wonder more about this hobby even about "new collectors" and even about "expert collectors" of these days.

I believe one has to take notice of the respected opinions from Stonemint and Bob Coleman, who are experienced with this type of item, and who seem very confident that this is a period example based on the pics provided, and a hands-on would likely confirm that opinion.

It appears the eagle is a fake from respected insignia collectors. At the least, the insignia area seems to have been tampered with based on the messy lining around that area only, with the rest of the lining being in top condition. If Ron could provide a pic of the eagle reverse, perhaps the opinions could be confirmed. Ron is clearly convinced the whole item is good - "Mr. Illsby, if I didn't think it was good, I wouldn't have listed it. I have more than enough good items to list, believe me."

Still a bit of confusion over whether this a new item, or an old motel buy item, as Ron's descriptions changed over the course of a few days on the different forums - only he can explain that.

Regards
Russ

All that I know is some "expert" SS insignia individuals have pronounced the eagle at least to be an obvious fake. None of the so called "old guard experts" caught this detail with all of their collective knowledge. Second, since the eagle has been pronounced to be a fake on this very forum the owner has not posted. Also the Forum administrator who was once so active on this thread has done nothing to address this apparent breach of Forum rules regarding fakes and reproductions...gents this is what it is and it has always been apparent. This is why this Forum is dying a slow but certain death...pity...

Dave Hohaus was very quick to condemn me with its so called "conspiracy" theory , but feel reassured that he won't be as vindictive with the big boys.

Excuse my French but is this what you call......"double standard" ?
We then wonder why people get upset, jeeeeeeeeeeez.

has the eagle been absolutely,positively identified as a reproduction?..Robert

I guess it is a matter of what you call "definately" Kevin has deemed it a fake on another thread and he knows his stuff....enough for me along with the others that have pronounced it bad.cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Ronald Weinand:
Lastly, no one has shown me any pictures, side by side comparisons, known fake comparisons with this hat or insignias that substantiate stated opinions or comments.
Therefore, it is evident to me that hats are much more of a minefield than daggers or medals, so opinions are just that: opinions.

So, what exactly do you want to see Ron? Examples of the fake 360 have been shown as comparison, including the reverse. So why don't you show the reverse of the eagle on the cap? Perhaps the opinions could be wrong? Or maybe, you've already checked and they are correct?

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7480909271/m/1920009185

It seems you've already decided that it is ok, and opinions don't count. If that's the case, why did you post it for comments in the first place??

Regards
Russ

Apologies - double post for some reason...

Here is what I see and what I know...Max certified member and lifetime OVMS posts an often copied visor on another site for opinions and states that he is "no expert" He receives mostly negative comments and then explains them off just as "newbie collectors" often do wishing their item to be authentic, only in this instance his 40 plus years of "motel" buys assures him that the cap is good. The cap is then offerred on our site at a very good price without any explanation or hint of the solicited comments.The seller explains these off and then an interested, respected and longtime member of this forum offers to purchase the cap but wants a 6 month authenticity guarantee. This is not given and is explained away as "tying up monetary funds" Finally the eagle is proposed to be a known fake and not a great one. I see no comments anywhere that the eagle posted is authentic. The seller explains this away as well with the words "no side by side comparisons given" SS headgear is a controversial field at the best of times. The seller at no time sates his responsibility for creating this mess yet rather places blame upon everyone else to even include the one potential buyer who came forward. Now the seller will not even post on this thread any longer. As stated previously I have lost a great deal of respect, not only for the seller but for one or two others as well. I feel strongly that more than one apology is owed. Lets see if anyone is man enough to step to the plate. Sadly I have my doubts.

May I very humbly creep back and repeat the question, what is the concidered view on this cap? I am sure Ron wants to give his evaluation on the piece. The eagle is sending me "nuts" is it a 300, 400, or what. The scull, its OK. Behind the lines it has also been considered questionable.

I want to be up front, the knoledge that the forum has is way outside my abilities. But I would like to find a resolve. Dear Rone has given two varrient descriptions of the hat on two forums. Please explain why you would do that?

Well, Ron has left the building again without answering any of the valid questions posed.

I guess, now that the attack by Dave and Ron on Pat has concluded, and the discussion now revolves around the cap, they find themselves backed into a very small corner...

Regards
Russ

Just so there is no confusion...my 26++ years of actively collecting German militaria and my 36 years of having an interest tell me that this cap, in all likelihood is a period piece. A hands on inspection is still needed in order to be 100% certain but I see no red flags in its construction that would make me believe otherwise. The possibility of a reproduction eagle does not alter my opinion. This unfortunately is not the problem... cheers, RYan

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Coleman:
THE ANSWER TO ALL QUESTIONS ON THIS HAT CAN BE SEEN IN THE INSTALLATION OF THE PIPING.

That is for the the cloth constuction of the vizor.
However Kevin who is a known insignia specialist has deemed the eagle a known fake type. If that is true then if this was a dagger I would be called a parts dagger.
Here is a new thread on an SS Algemeine Vizor. Note the photo of the liner. The area behind the insignia is snug and appears untouched. And that is on a vizor that was worn for some time by the owner.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7480909271/m/6610030385
Now look at the same area on the subject visor.
What do you see? And this is on an apparently unworn/mint hat.
Of course all this is just supposition until Ron pulls that eagle off (shouldn't be too hard since the liner is already loose), and takes a shot of the back of the eagle.
And if it's bad, no big deal. The rest of the hat is good. And he can call someone like JR and get a real eagle and BINGO! Problem solved!

Regards,
-serge-

Just a few observations about ss head gear. It would not be unlikely that this cap is real, was little worn, but also stripped of it's eagle and skull at the end of the war. It's value will be determined by how many people feel it is pre 1945. Many people like it such as the black nco, and the price goes up or it sells quick. No one likes it and it sells slow and the price goes down. Bad enough economy and nothing sells. This is true for all of us. One thing that seems to be the case is real insignia are never on fake caps. They are too valuable in their own right. If I see real insignia on a cap I am excited! You can always tell fake insignia sooner or later. Someone better than I am can ALWAYS tell. It doesn't mean that this cap is not real because of fake skull or eagle, but it will ALWAYS be called into question because mint stuff should have mint insignia still on it. That is just a seed of doubt that is hanging over it. I personally like the piping and the mismatch in the size of it in different locations but I cannot say much more from photos. My main point is that regardless of what was the case in years past you just don't see today real insignia on fake caps. david

I BELIEVE CALLING A VISOR CAP WITH REPLACED INSIGNIA A PARTS PIECE IS STRETCHING THINGS A LITTLE. I HAVE SEEN NUMEROUS PERIOD PICTURES OF SS OFFICERS AND NCO'S WEARING A CAP WITH DANGLING OR MISSING INSIGNIA. THE FIRST GRAY NCO CAP I PURCHASED FROM A VET IN THE MID 60'S WAS MISSING THE EAGLE. INSIGNIA BECAME DAMAGED AND WAS REPLACED IN PERIOD. BACK IN THE MID 80'S, I BOUGHT TEN SETS OF VISOR CAP SS EAGLE AND SKULL SETS FROM A VETERAN WHO OBTAINED THEM OUT OF MAX SIMON'S HOUSE IN WHICH HE WAS BILLITED. HE ALSO HAD A BOX FULL OF MOUNTED PHOTOGRAPHS OF TOTENKOPF IN BATTLE IN FRANCE WITH A CHRISTMAS DEDICATION TO HIM FROM EICKE AND SIMON'S FACTORY REFINISHED ROHM DAGGER, WHICH I STILL HAVE. I AM SURE THE EXTRA SETS WERE THERE TO REPLACE INSIGNIA WHENEVER HE FOUND IT NECESSARY TO DO SO. THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS YEARS AGO PERIOD CAPS WERE FOUND DIRECTLY FROM VETS WITH INSIGNIA PRONGS THROUGH THE LINING. THE GERMAN OWNERS DID NOT CARE AND NEITHER DID THE VETS. POSSIBLY RON BOUGHT THIS HAT SANS EAGLE AND REPLACED IT AT SOME TIME. THE CAP IS GOOD. I WILL LEAVE THE DISCUSSION OF THE INSIGNIA TO THOSE MORE VERSED IN THIS SUBJECT MATTER.

Parts Piece:
If the visors eagle had been replaced with a period insignia then yes I agree that perhaps calling it a parts piece is a bit of a stretch. However if the insignia is a postwar fake then it is NOT considered original in the collector sense of the word. There can be nothing fake on a period piece and it still be called correct.

But what is really the problem here? We all know it. And thanks Bob for bringing it up: "POSSIBLY RON BOUGHT THIS HAT SANS EAGLE AND REPLACED IT AT SOME TIME".
Well perhaps it is so. Either way the real issue is just that ethical issue...DISCLOSURE OF A KNOWN MATERIAL FACT.

Regards,
-serge-

quote:

Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
Parts Piece:
If the visors eagle had been replaced with a period insignia then yes I agree that perhaps calling it a parts piece is a bit of a stretch. However if the insignia is a postwar fake then it is NOT considered original in the collector sense of the word. There can be nothing fake on a period piece and it still be called correct.

But what is really the problem here? We all know it. And thanks Bob for bringing it up: "POSSIBLY RON BOUGHT THIS HAT SANS EAGLE AND REPLACED IT AT SOME TIME".
Well perhaps it is so. Either way the real issue is just that ethical issue...DISCLOSURE OF A KNOWN MATERIAL FACT.

Regards,
-serge-

I AGREE.

Ron's reluctance to show the eagle reverse and his lack of comment appear to be leading us to an assumed conclusion.

From the For Sale thread, by Ron:

"The piece needs to be moved. It is guaranteed out of the woodwork, so, in this economy, someone gets a buy."

Hopefully, Ron will address this and set us straight.

Regards
Russ

quote:

Originally posted by militarymania:
has the eagle been absolutely,positively identified as a reproduction?..Robert

Yes. There is no question. I have no need to see the reverse, as this style of eagle has telltale features on the front, which differ from all known originals. The style was first used on the bogus 360/42 aluminum eagles, but has since been duplicated on other fakes of various materials with assorted backs using different maker marks. This one apears to be one of the early 360 fakes, but, regardless of which version of the fake it is, it is unquestionably a FAKE!

Brad

The silence on this thread is very telling and that is very unfortunate...at least we can all, for the most part agree on the "real" issue at hand..I agree the cap looks fine and is still a decent price even with a replaced eagle. Unfortunately the chances of matching an eagle with the skull to match the condition of the visor is going to prove to be a most difficult undertaking..cheers, Ryan What say you Ron?

I would say the silence is defening. The thing that is most dissapointing is the lack of responce. A what was concidered honorable dealer, has not explained. A good reputation lost in a heart beat.

I have never heard anything said in a negative light about Ron and do not think that this incident will hurt his reputation in any sense. I do feel that he owes an explanation to this forum and perhaps an apology to someone and he is not the only one...unfortunately both gentlemen are uncharactoristically mute...Is this so much to ask? cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Christopher J Ailsby:
I would say the silence is defening. The thing that is most dissapointing is the lack of responce. A what was concidered honorable dealer, has not explained. A good reputation lost in a heart beat.

Unfortunately, this certainly appears to be correct. Ron has again exited without any response. I would like to read Dave's opinion on this because this episode could be in breach of the CoC in terms of how this item was described for sale. Very sad to see.

Regards
Russ

maybe he should has offered one of those "Max Certified Dealer" guarantees, with the purchase of the hat..

Just a followup note. You would expect this cap to come from the veteran either with its original insignia on it because it is mint, or as I stated before with them removed which could be understandable post war. If as it appears now the insignia are reproduction then THEY HAVE BEEN ADDED AFTER THE FACT BY SOMEONE!!!!! WHO????? David

thats is why there is nothing to expect

I don't have a dog in this fight because I know nothing about SS visors but I just concluded a deal with Ron and found him very professional and would do more business in a heart beat. No one's perfect but he's one of the good guys in this hobby IMO.

I agree Erich

I ALSO CONCUR WITH ERICH AND ROBERT. RON SPECIALIZES IN EDGED WEAPONS AND THE NPEA. HE WAS VERY FORTHCOMING WITH HIS INITIAL STATEMENTS WITH REGARDS TO THIS HAT.
RON, YOU CERTAINLY DO NOT OWE ME OR ANYONE ELSE AN APOLOGY. WHAT A PATHETIC REMARK.

Ron is a big boy and he can defend himself..I did not like the assertions and insinuations that were made towards Patrice by two members of this forum and it is my opinion, and I retain my right to it that an apology would perhaps be the decent thing to do, and the gentlemanly thing to do. I have done so to Ron and have defended his cap and his reputation. I have received private emails from Ron and others through this entire post and I am sorry to say that the architect of this mess is the person that originally posted it.It was mishandled and I think that is the consensus of opinion here. I know your opinion of me Bob as the email in which you expressed it was made known to me. It would be interesting to see if the owner of the cap was a "newbie" how many people would jump to his defence under similiar and identical circumstances..this thread has become redundant and should be put out of its misery.

If I bought the cap and found out the eagle was bad,I know Ron would make good on it.That is my experience in dealing with him for several years.

quote:

Originally posted by [email protected]:
..this thread has become redundant and should be put out of its misery.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!

Beaten to death..........
Seiler

Sorry, but there are un-answered questions here.

So, is it now okay to sell an item as original, have it found to contain fake part(s), and allow the seller to offer no explanation?

Is it also okay now for the administrator and the seller to harass a prospective buyer who wanted the item reviewed for authenticity, have the item found to be not 100% original, and accept no further comment from the administrator or the seller?

I may be missing something here, but it seems the For Sale rule is now saying Buyer Beware, with no guarantee of anything. Surely, someone needs to address this or offer an explanation?


Regards
Russ

Russ man what are you doing...don't you know that you will incur the wrath...just let it go man....safer that way...and then everything can get back to normal and in a month or so no one will remember a thing or even care..trust me best this way for everyone. That is what this forum is all about... all is right with the world once again..the establishment and the ruling class are safe cheers

seems to me much of this "stimulating" chatter, no matter how justified on the merits, can be conducted by PM.

that wd. free up more bandwidth for discussing militaria as such, and not accusations. as the bartenders say when tempers flare, "take it outside guys - I don't wanna have to grab my baseball bat!"

quote:

Originally posted by SEEKING3945:
gentlemen:I am new to the site,but i am in my 39 year of collecting.I have seen much in those years.please let it go,their are many things in life that are important ,but is this one of them?A simple apoligy to Mr.AILSBY for bad manners shown him in the attacks on him.None of this is right and remember that young collectors who are on the site must wonder what the devil is going on,remember "peace on earth"

With respect, this is not about apologies for childish attacks on members - go back and read the thread, and the For Sale thread.

This goes to the heart of the Code of Conduct here - if we are openly permitted to sell fakes stated as originals, with apparent condonement from the administrators in this instance, what hope is there for new members and collectors to trust the information and items offered at this site?

Ryan, I'll take my chances - maybe I'm pushing it up-hill here, but this won't go away until an explanation is offered. And if I am wrong, and have mis-interpreted this situation, I will make an apology to those concerned.

Regards
Russ

Russ,,Ryan has been around here long enough to know the status quo.. Please just read his post again,,then,,read one more time ..
That's how it is here,period, end of sentence,,no need for you to make an apology.
Just click your heels 3 times and chant,,lets see another dagger, lets see another dagger, lets see,,

Russ, another truth seeker here.

Yes, unfortunatly in this changing world some things don't change that should change. It has been demonstrated here many a time for those that refused to believe.
Instead of questions being answered the questionare gets attacked. Instead of answered how that fake eagle landed on the Vets SS visor...you get warned not to anger "OZ". Instead of apoligies to our esteemed collectors and authors Christopher and Patrice they get silence. Anything new here? Anyone learning here?

Does repeating help anything here? I don't think so. So why even bother my friend. Because in about a couple of months this thread will be gone also.
I do commend you on asking the right questions.

Regards,
-serge-