#94755
07/19/2007 07:44 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Lets see how far this thread can go, forestry hirschf�ngers with Eagle and swastika hilts are tough to find, real ones are anyway, there are a number of Atwood H�ller fakes out there that I'm sure are in a lot of old time collections, they pop up every now and again. Lets see some real ones. I'll start with a nice H�rster marked piece.
Gary
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#94756
07/19/2007 07:44 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94757
07/19/2007 07:45 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94758
07/19/2007 07:46 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
I know there are guys on this forum who have examples so cmon lets see them.
Gary
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#94759
07/19/2007 08:06 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,023 Likes: 31
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,023 Likes: 31 |
Baz69, just for my personal interest, what material is the hilt? Could you - please - show a detailed pic of the eagle?.
Interesting piece, never have seen such scabbard fittings on a period forest dagger. Could you also show pics how these scabbard fittings are fixed?
Thank you in advance,
regards,
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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#94760
07/19/2007 08:25 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Hi Wotan
The hilt is lightweight, not sure what it is made from but the gilt has held up extremely well which is unusual as most show some loss on these leightweight fittings. The scabard fittings are held on in the usual manner with staples on the rear, interesting to note the lack of numbers under the staples, I presume that they did not make many of these and were not nesessary to mark them such. The Eagle and Swastika as with a majority of these types is very crude.
Gary
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#94761
07/19/2007 08:26 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94762
07/19/2007 08:26 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94763
07/19/2007 08:27 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Reverse upper mount, both upper and lower mounts are steel based.
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#94764
07/20/2007 12:03 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
Textbook piece Gary ( My textbook that is  ) I have an identical one. Here is another-the Clemen & Jung--IMO the highest quality piece of this type in both materials and workmanship.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94765
07/20/2007 12:04 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94766
07/20/2007 01:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182 |
My C & J Subordinate
(Courtesy of EBAY in '98)
Lou Bell
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#94767
07/20/2007 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182 |
The Boss:
(Courtesy of somebody named Coates)
Lou Bell
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#94768
07/20/2007 03:30 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Beautiful dagers guys, here's my C&J, just picked it up.
Gary
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#94769
07/20/2007 03:33 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Lou, are yours with the metal scabbards or leather?, also what is the length of the blades and overall.
Houston, What fittings are on the tiger, is that a H�rster clam I can see there?,brass or lightweight, has it the narrow blade with the vertical running etch?, can we see the etch panels please. Lovely examples guys.
Gary
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#94770
07/20/2007 03:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182 |
Gary,
The Subordinate is metal...10 3/4 " blade....Leader is leather....13 1/2" blade...
Man you sure got nice stuff......
Regards...
Lou Bell
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#94771
07/20/2007 04:11 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Thanks Lou,
I don't have a monopoly on nice stuff, your two pieces are not to be sniffed at and are lovely examples, I cannot believe the price of this type Hirschf�nger, especially the C&J pieces, I think they must have jumped a few thousand in the last two years.
cheers
Gary
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#94772
07/20/2007 08:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,980 Likes: 4
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,980 Likes: 4 |
Gents, Great hardware!  Best regards! Bill
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#94773
07/21/2007 12:09 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
The TIGER has an exclusive etch--a double TM and an aluminum hilt. Sometimes these are unmarked.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94774
07/21/2007 12:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94775
07/21/2007 12:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94776
07/21/2007 12:11 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94777
07/21/2007 12:11 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94778
07/21/2007 12:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94779
07/21/2007 12:13 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94780
07/21/2007 12:13 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94781
07/21/2007 12:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
An interesting thing about these--On at least one German site they are listed as being for the Heer Forester. Maybe so-maybe not--I don't know the basis for this. Perhaps a guess.
OK--I might as well state here that there were Heer Foresters, Luftwaffe Foresters, National Service Foresters and Private Lands Foresters. The Luft and Heer personnel were in charge of the lands owned by those units--Airfields, Bases, Training areas, etc. Most collectors don't know this.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94782
07/21/2007 12:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182 |
Lou Bell
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#94783
08/04/2007 02:48 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Lou, can you E-Mail me please, having a bit of trouble mailing you. [email protected]Gary
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#94784
08/04/2007 09:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182 |
Gary,
Mail on the way... I think I fixed the problem....
Lou Bell
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#94785
04/20/2008 12:40 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Here's one I picked up at the SOS show.
Gary
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#94786
04/20/2008 12:41 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94787
04/20/2008 12:42 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
3
a.JPG (72.85 KB, 243 downloads)
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#94788
04/20/2008 12:43 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94789
04/20/2008 12:44 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94790
04/20/2008 12:46 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94791
04/22/2008 08:51 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Here's a nice C&J that came in today from Germany.It's about as complete as you'll find them.
Gary
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#94792
04/22/2008 08:52 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94793
04/22/2008 08:53 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94794
04/22/2008 08:54 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94795
04/22/2008 08:55 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94796
04/22/2008 08:56 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94797
04/22/2008 08:57 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
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#94798
04/22/2008 08:58 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
I hope you guys find this piece to your liking.
Cheers
Gary
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#94799
04/23/2008 03:50 PM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 452 Likes: 1
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 452 Likes: 1 |
Gary
Beautiful!
Thanks for showing.
Roger
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#94800
04/23/2008 04:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182 |
Gary,
Great piece..luv the knot on #1...
What's the explanation on the dark acorns???? Mine has darkened ones too but with slight traces of gilding..is it peculiar to C & J pieces???
..Thanx for the excellent pix also....
Best regards,
Lou Bell
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#94801
04/23/2008 05:25 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Roger and Lou, I thought you would like seeing these two new pieces.
Lou,
The acorns on my piece have traces of the gilding left, I have seen this anomoly on a few C&J's and suspect that it is perculiar to this maker, the remainder of the fittings are 100% gilt so I presume it was just a problem with the acorns, the rear acorns are of a simpler design, this also is perculiar to C&J.
Cheers
Gary
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#94802
04/30/2008 04:25 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
I have been doing a little research and asking a few considered opinions on this belt and hanger and the consensus is that it is a Heer belt and hanger, does this give any credance to the feelings prominent within our hobby that these type of hirschf�ngers with the eagle and swastika hilts are actually for Heer Foresters???. This complete set came directly from Germany and I am led to believe that it has in no way been messed with.
Cheers
Gary
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#94803
04/30/2008 05:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,980 Likes: 4
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,980 Likes: 4 |
Gary, That's an excellent question ...  W~
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#94804
05/01/2008 01:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
Check with Helmut. He is the one who has been listing them as such on his web site. I don't know if he has evidence to back this up but really have not heard anyone else say this.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#94805
05/01/2008 02:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182 |
WHAT IS HELMUT'S WEB PAGE ADDRESS?????...
(LOST IT)...
Lou Bell
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#94806
05/01/2008 05:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94807
05/01/2008 05:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94808
05/01/2008 05:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94809
05/01/2008 05:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94810
05/01/2008 05:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94811
05/01/2008 05:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94812
05/01/2008 05:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94813
05/01/2008 05:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94814
05/01/2008 05:48 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94815
05/01/2008 06:19 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
John
A beautiful piece in stunning condition, it's very nice to see another complete piece with great frog and knot. These are very difficult to find in this sort of condition. Is there a makers mark on your piece, I'm not 100% sure but it seems to resemble a Holler pattern.
Thanks for showing
Gary
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#94816
05/01/2008 10:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Gary:
There is no maker mark on it.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#94817
05/03/2008 10:49 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Whilst studying both of the C&J pieces I have noticed a few variations.
The blades vary in length,
Stag is 259mm
Ivory is 277mm
This surprised me somewhat until I studied the blades, the etches are slightly different, the stag piece is at the top of this picture.
Obverse blade views, notice the tree near the riccasso just above the boar which is being attacked by the dog.
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#94818
05/03/2008 10:51 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Now the reverse etch, notice again near the riccasso.
Both of the riccasso's are the same length of 44mm.
Stag piece to top again
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#94819
05/03/2008 10:54 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Now the scabbards, Stag grip scabbard is 282mm whilst the Ivory piece is 296mm,
Stag to top again
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#94820
05/03/2008 10:57 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Now the most surprising thing was the lower mounts, I had thought that because the Ivory grip piece was longer it would possibly have a longer lower mount but it's not the case, clearly you can see the stag piece has a much longer mount
Stag mount 115mm long
Ivory mount 98mm long
Stag to top again.
Notice also the variances within the hand engraving, it would be nice to compere others.
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#94821
05/03/2008 11:00 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
Notice that the obverse grips whilst they are made of different materials the hilts and guards are almost identical as are the acorn styles.
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#94822
05/03/2008 11:02 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
The reverse hilts are also very similar, the main differences are the acorns.
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#94823
05/03/2008 11:07 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
There are also small differences within the scabbard lugs though they are small and mainly I think through the casting of each piece.
Also the top mounts vary in length
Stag piece 79mm
Ivory piece 72mm
Stag grip on top again
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#94824
05/03/2008 11:13 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
I personally think that we can see by this side by side comparison that there are variances to be expected with each piece within all aspects of the manufacture. In many other types of daggers and especially within blade lengths this variation would be considered a detraction, not so I believe within certain hirschf�ngers and especially these C&J pieces with the Eagle and swastika hilts.
Gary
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#94825
05/03/2008 07:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,980 Likes: 4
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,980 Likes: 4 |
Hi Gary, You can't argue with proof like this, I guess it's what you call incontrovertible evidence, eh? Younger collectors should take note of these slight but true anomalies no matter what field of daggers they collect, it will only help them to make wise decisions on their own. You've done a great job with this thread mate, as well as the rest of you who contributed. My hat's off to all of you. This is exactly what I thought these forums were all about, adding and sharing knowledge. Job well done fellas!  Bill
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#94826
05/05/2008 07:07 PM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30
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OP
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,782 Likes: 30 |
I hope this thread has a while to run, I'm sure there are a few more examples guys can post.
Cheers
Gary
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