UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum would very much appreciate your help

i posted this initially on another forum, and one of the posters there advised me that this place might reap me more information, so here i am.

ive been doing some research to try and find out what a dagger that was among my late grandfathers possessions actually is, ive always had a rough idea, and in recent weeks ive been getting a better handle on it, i beleive its an SA high leader dagger, one or two things are slightly off from a few things ive read, the number of links cited, the dates on the usage of the makers mark it has etc, so i'm looking for info.

about the only thing i know is that it is for real, he brought it back with him from the war and it dwelled in his musty attic for years, at some point the remains of the rotted leather was removed from the sheath (i vaguely remember him doing that as a child) he claims he was stabbed with it, but as people have pointed out its a dress dagger and they consider that unlikely, though he was stabbed and invaldid home during the war, i'm not sure where he served for certain though i know he was envolved with the liberation of belsen, i'm in the process of getting his war records so i'll know more when that happens, anyway here are some pictures

i'd appreciate anything you can tell me

Hi you have what appears to be an authentic SA high leader's dagger. I would imagine that you have been flooded with private offers to purchase. In nice near perfect condition we are talking about a $30,000.00 dagger. Often the leather is in poor condition or has been replaced. Your dagger appears to have a decent handle and fittings. The blade also appears in decent condition with gilt remaining to the motto. In this condition I would value your dagger in the $14,000.00 range. Recovered leather would place it closer to $19,000.00. Congratulations on acquiring a relatively rare dagger that is quite valueable. cheers, Ryan S

It looks original, but I think you should have it authenticated. You can pay someone like Wittmann for this service and they will evaluate it in writing.

Hi,

I also think it looks like a nice original one.
Congratulations.

As the others said get it authenticated by someone like Tom Wittman. I believe he still offers a leather re-covering service and could advise on restoration...

Mark

Maybe just a stupid Q,

But why have it authenticated, when you know for sure its the real thing?? I dont see the point. Its like going to secondary school, and your mom is still holding your hand..


Congrats with the dagger. I'am sure your late grandfather would never have guessed it would be that valuable.

PJ

Easy... the reason why you have it authenticated is to allow you sell it for the highest price.

Dutchy... "peace of mind".

Absolutely stunning !

Anybody that knows what they are looking at doesn't need to have this 'authenticated'. Have we as collectors so abdicated our ability to make a decission about anything without having someone else say it's okay? Who taught them?

Look, See, Study, Make up your own mind. That's how we learn something of real value. Just asking someone else leaves one at the mercy of that fellow's knowledge. Who's to say he is always correct?

Anyhow........

That's a nice original SA Honor dagger. Granted some issues with condition but it is original. Values will be what the market would bear at any particular time. Any conservation/restoration work should be approached with caution and a thorough understanding by the fellow doing the work. Shoddy conservation/restoration will only further degrade this piece. Before doing anything that will change it's charactor please THINK of any and all potential consequences.

All the best,

Tony

Curiousowner,Join Germandaggers.com for a nominal fee and place it in the for sale section.Just set a high price and you can lower it until somebody takes it.If you do not want to do that then e-mail me after you get your highest bid from anybody .Im a curiousbuyer. [email protected]

Tony... the point to have the dagger authenticated is not for the benefit of "expert" collectors like yourself. It is for the benefit of the OWNER, who clearly doesn't know daggers. By getting it authenticated such an owner is unlikely to get conned into selling it for a song by unscrupulous "expert" collectors or dealers. We all know they are out there en masse.

Tony that's exactly my point.

I just feel that certification is bull**** if you know your buisiness. Nearly all people here are by now experts if you compare it to the general public. Only publishing on this forum proves this already.

So why do these items need to be authenticated by the "uber collector" so it is a valid market piece??? For this piece your just waisting a couple of $100 for a piece of paper stating the obvious.

The "uber collectors" Dont dictate the market!!

If they do, they only dictate the NO NO's, of which nobody here is part of.

PJ

Hi the person has not even indicated that they are selling and regardless they have most assuredly been flooded with offers from guys on this forum. I see both points of view. If it were offerred for sale to the un-educated than a dealer /expert certification would have some weight. It is so obviously a good piece that certification, by Johnson, Whittmann or Jesus himself is not required in order to sell it here. cheers, Ryan

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline Drive:
Tony... the point to have the dagger authenticated is not for the benefit of "expert" collectors like yourself. It is for the benefit of the OWNER, who clearly doesn't know daggers. By getting it authenticated such an owner is unlikely to get conned into selling it for a song by unscrupulous "expert" collectors or dealers. We all know they are out there en masse.

Hello Skyline,

I am a serious student of German edged weapons for many years. "Expert" is not something that I label myself. Knowledgable? To an extent. 'Expert"? Hardly, there is always more to learn.

My first comments were about the sheepish concensus that everything has to be vetted by one of the 'big' guys to have any weight in the collecting field and hence the market. Are they the only ones capable of thinking and thereby determining authenticity? Hardly.

Look, See, Study, then make up your own mind. These are solid priciples that need to be followed when you collect anything. Otherwise collecting may not be such a good field for those that don't.

About Curiousowner, I don't think that you are giving enough credit to the owner of this wonderful piece.

He plainly states that it was brought back by his grandfather and that he is aware of some subtle differences. He even mentions that he is doing research and is looking for further info. I would say that the owner has a better handle on what he has and how to proceed than your comment that he is one "who clearly doesn't understand daggers."

I see a clearly reasoned course to learn more about what he has. More power to him.

No where did he mention or imply that he was looking to sell this piece. That seems to be a conclusion somehow arrived at within several posts of the initial pics. As collectors, we of all people, should be well aware that there are still some folks that may want to keep in their family a piece that relates to a grandfather's legacy as an American soldier during WWII.

What I'm suggesting is that we try to be has helpful as we can to our guest here.

All the best,

Tony

Heres another idea for free certification.Take it to the MAX show Sept 29-Oct 1, at the Indianapolis Convention Center.Most major dealers in the USA and maybe the world will be there.Take it to EVERY! table there before you sell it, if you want to sell it . Who knows what the right dealer at the right time would pay for it .You will then know how genuine it is by the amount of $ you are offered for it. P.S.If the dagger has never been taken apart I would never take it apart,let someone clean and take it apart after they buy it,if they want too.

Tony
Truer words have never been spoken. I think this needs to be posted in a bunch of the other forums. Should prove quite helpful in all areas.

I have one disagreement in your statement, as I consider you to be an expert in many areas.

Here ..here.

One reason I would get something like this appraised by a recognized name, is for insurance purposes.

If on their household insurance they say they have a dagger work @10k. They will probably have to pay the insurance company a premium, they wont come out and check it. But they will take the money.

If in the event of a fire or burglary and the dagger goes, they claim on say a 10k dagger, the insurance assessors want proof they owned the item and proof of value from a reputable source.

No proof no payout...

I have all my top end items named and appraised in the event of the above...

I used to work for an Insurance Loss adjusting company and know how they operate in the UK i'm guessing its pretty similar in the USA.

quote:

My first comments were about the sheepish concensus that everything has to be vetted by one of the 'big' guys to have any weight in the collecting field and hence the market. Are they the only ones capable of thinking and thereby determining authenticity? Hardly.

Tony... "sheepish" is not a word usually associated with me. However, for the most part I do try to be civil, so I will let it go at that. Now I agree with your concern about the big names in the business, but the fact is that they DO control much of the thought and opinion. For that reason an authentication from one of them is an asset, not a liability, for a non-collector.

I respect your opinion. Please respect mine. Let's agree to disagee. Ok?

Hello Skyline,

First off let me say that I did not in any way imply or otherwise suggest that you, personally, are 'sheepish'regarding collecting. If I inadvertantly offended you I apologise.

My statement was a broad brush aimed at the collecting community in general. I would think that many serious collectors and other dedicated enthusiasts will see that what I said is in fact the norm today. The only reason the big names in the field have so much sway is that collectors, again in general, have often abdicated their willingness to learn in depth about what they collect. It seems much easier to get an answer on the internet and be done with it than it is to do the homework yourself. The knowledge gained this way is very shallow indeed.

We can see this mentality ocassionaly when one suggests building a reference library on a particular field of interest. Often the response is something like 'Why should I spend all that money on books when everything is available on line or I can just have so and so certify it for me?'Followed by the inevitable 'I would rather take that money and buy a collectable'. This attitude laize faire toward finding out what is for one's self is not conductive to a well reasoned discussion. Especially when someone's depth of knowledge is pretty much limited to what someone else said. I believe they call this 'hearsay' in the legal field. And we still wonder whay we continually keep hearing about someone getting jammed up with a fake or got ripped off in some way?

We are really not that far apart in our positions here. We may be just talking past each other on some points.

All the best and good hunting.

Tony

Tony... I don't disagree with you, but you're describing collectors who don't bother to self-educate. I am not. I thought my earlier posts were clear, but perhaps not. I am talking about non-collectors. Persons who have no desire to collect but want some appraisal of what they have in their possession.

Is there anybody out there that would NOT buy this dagger with just the photos supplied?
I don't know what dealers would pay for this piece. I know some of them like to have huge profit margins. But if this was offered to a end user under 20K, I feel it would not last long. My opinion. - Wagner -

There are very few people that I would purchase a $20k item from without first seeing it in person. But that's just me.

Yes, only with inspection and return privilege.

I would purchase this dagger from the pictures provided with a secure method of payment. If I lived in the US I would take delivery of it personally or if he were not too far a distance from Canada I would drive and pick it up. It is an obviously good and correct piece that I would value at a minimum of $14,000.00 to $18,000.00 in its present condition.Strange that the originator of this thread has not replied. I would be most eager after the replies that were posted. cheers, Ryan

I agree with you Ryan.It is just to easy of a scam to send 20k to somebody who post a bunch of pictures, no matter what he guarantees.

Hello all

the first thing i can assure you is that i'm not in any way a scammer.

and I must apologise for my lack of response over the weekend, combined with a holiday weekend here in the uk I must be frank in admitting ive been totally overwhelmed by the response to my initial enquiries.

When I first contacted you I was in the main interested in finding out more about this familial artefact and its history, as I became more aware that it might be something of a rarity and was directed more to the right websites to find out more about it. (so thanks for your comments Tony, youre more right than you know)

I confess I had no idea that I would cause quite the stir I have and that the item is of such rarity. Of course I am delighted but having an inbox literally full of enquiries to buy the item in some cases for large amounts of money (some significantly larger than those stated openly here :O)combined with several offers of help with authentication and restoration I�m at a loss.

I took the weekend to regroup in light of the shock and frankly I am going to take my time regarding any decision. It IS an important part of my family�s history and I intend to secure my grandfathers war record before I take any action.

It may well be that the lure of the price offered is too much for a starving college teacher like myself and I do decide to sell, but I think I am right to say that such an item will not depreciate much if at all in the next few weeks and months.

So my current plan is to pursue authentication in this country (the UK) and inquire about restoration. When and if I decide to sell I want to maximise its value and I may well have the leather replaced professionally and so on as some of the emails have advised me, I might also think about its value at auction, frankly I simply don�t know. One thing I am certain of is that I don�t want to make a rash decision.

I must thank those of you who have helped for your advice and interest in the piece. Its been quite a weekend both of discovery and excitement, and also of many many emails.

Rest assured if I do decide in the coming weeks to sell I will most certainly post here to that effect, but i am as yet uncertain.

thankyou again those who have emailed and posted your help in affirming for me what this Dagger is.

I was not suggesting that this was a scam just that it would be easy to scam someone. I hope you do not restore the dagger.I would rather have the small piece of the original leather under the center band than a 100% modern replacement.Restoration always makes me wonder what else has been done to it.The time to sell is when you have a buyer.Great dagger just as it is.It will never be anymore original than it is now.

Now, I have kept track of many of the high leader daggers sold by Wittmann over the years. Several have had leather replacements and it didn't hurt the selling price one bit. I have also seen some of these with partially rotted leather with a rusty shell exposed - and to me they look like hell. But it would look great displayed with a uniform in comparable condition where the rear end is ripped out, the elbows worn through, not to mention a spiffy coffee can hat with bird crap all over.

All those ANTIQUE ROADSHOWS "Fur Nicht" If thats the way Rudolf Hess's uniform looked after he crashed his plane thats the way I want it bird crap and all.While restoreing it replate the chain and refinish the handle with the shiny new leather.The fittings look a little dull re-silver them.And the blade repolish the blade did I leave any parts out.100% original High Leaders dagger made by modern artisians.

To Curious Owner you are quite correct. You have a real gem there that most on this forum would give their left nut to acquire. Your handling of the situation is prudent and well thought out. I do not think that Zorro was referring to you with his post about scammers but rather mentioning how easy it would be to post pictures and offer guarantees about anything for the sake of making a buck. He was commenting on the on going conversation and not on your charactor.Please update us on your eventual decision and outcome. Best regards, Ryan

Curious Owner,,,,,,,
Thank you for posting images of this rare dagger.

On a personel note my uncle who served in the Royal Norfolk Regiment during the war was with the first group of soldiers to liberate Bergen Belsen.I have some of my uncles 'liberated' SS-items and Heer items,that were taken from this camp.The two soldiers may have known one another!
If you would like to contact me privately, my pm is on the site,,,, Good luck in your decision on the dagger. Regards Stephen [ HOOPER ]

Well I for one hope CuriousOwner posts back his research on how the dagger came into his family. For me history plays an important role.

Cheers

John

I would encourage the owner to keep the dagger regardless of it's value.

This forum helped me identify a Jos. Schlimbach SA Dagger my dad acquired. The value was not in the same league as this dagger but it was worth substantially more than either my dad or I would have thought. My dad could certainly use the money. Instead he gave it to me a few weeks ago for my birthday. It's now officially a family heirloom.

Sometimes the value of an item cannot be expressed in dollars and cents.