UBB.threads Forums General Militaria Historic and Period Firearms Forum Springfield 1903

Scored this on Saturday.Super crispy condition.
No markings on stock.Never fooled with.
Was`nt refinished, so why no stampings on stock?

A nice 03 what is the date on the barrel?The stock looks like a later vintage most 03s have straight stocks.Jay Parisi

George,
Nice 03! Yes what is the barrel date, is it a remington? Stock looks like a scant grip, if so thats a good stock, very nice! I've seen some with no marks before, sometimes you find these stamed to death with inspector markings, I had an 03A4 in the matching box that was all WW2 vintage with mixed parts that just had a ton of stampings, then I had a late remington with just the "P" stamp on the bottom like you normally see.

Fritziii

Here are a few more pics.

Another

And another...

Last 1

It's a great looking Rifle , not all matching because it has a Remington Barrel , but a Springfield reciever .
Here's my 1944 Remington '03 --

reciever

My Stock is also nicely marked "RA" , still has traces of orig Varnish showing --

I found a thread where a Gent has an '03 serial No. 1442476, and said it was made around 1934-1935. That's not that far off from your number.
It might be worth checking the serial number to find out when yours was made ..
Here's his thread --
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/03/03config.pl?noframes;read=46371
Whatever the case ..it's still a fine looking Rifle

Nice piece. The "American Mauser" is a great and very accurate rifle. It is rare to find one that has not been arsenal reworked several times, so as long as all parts are USGI it's good. FYI Civilian Marksmanship Program still has some available. See www.odcmp.com
Cheers,
-Mike

Thanks Mike ..glad you like it and , I was really happy finding my untouched 1944 ’03 …because as you said , many of the ones out there have been reworked. I know we generally accept GI “parts Guns” as the norm these days but ..complete matching Rifles do command a lot more Money. I was just offered an IBM Carbine (mis matched parts) for $800 …the same seller also has an untouched textbook example IBM that he wants $3,000 for.
That’s a little high for me ..think I’ll keep searching the local Yard Sales since the IBM’s were made in my neighborhood and there must still be a sleeper out there .

The funny thing with U.S. weapons of WWII vintage is that an all correct "textbook" carbine will sell for 3k when it is impossible to say if any two or more of the parts on the weapon were on it when it left the factory! The are all correct by style, batch number, finish etc.. but nevertheless one can not say that they were always together. There as been an industry for some time in makeing carbines and Garands and 03s correct in this manner.

The often scoffed at by collectors re-build is indeed GI correct and usually 100% as it was while in use and inventory.

That's why I like getting them out of a Closet , owned by people who never collected.
There are many sites out there that explain how between all the sub-contractors and production lines running out of parts , many newly manufactured "Frankenstein’s" were produced during the War. That documented proof explains them and (imo) preserves their collectible value.Arsenal refurbished (rebuilt) weapons will always be in a grey area since the various parts used to rebuild them were not documented.

So …I guess it’s like everything else in our Hobby ….what’s worth more to a Collector and holds its value better ? –A German Uniform with replaced insignia ? or a German Uniform with all original untouched insignia …then we can add to the “mix” –maybe the insignia was replaced by the Soldier in the field .
It all comes down to what you want ..and what explanation you’ll accept.
I’m seeing more and more of a general willingness to overlook flaws in items …maybe because of the prices , maybe things are just getting harder to find.

20 years ago ,WW2 relics that would have been rated a 3 or 4 (condition) would have been overlooked or ignored back then. Today , that 3 or 4 condition item has been somehow upgraded to a 6 or 7.
The Julia Auctions and others always get a premium for matching examples ...so the demand is still there

quote:

Originally posted by mrfabulous:
Scored this on Saturday.Super crispy condition.
No markings on stock.Never fooled with.
Was`nt refinished, so why no stampings on stock?

Hi Jds ...I'm not knocking his '03 as I've said a few times , it's a nice looking Rifle. But when George said it had "Never been fooled with" and "Wasn't refinished" ...I just wanted to make sure he could see that it was refinished so this was "touched". The Serial # range not matching the dated Barrel proves it without a doubt.

As you mentioned jds ..Here's a review on a Carbine ref Book that shows you how to "fix" your weapon and make it match--

More than 7 million M1 and M2 Carbines were manufactured by ten different companies between 1941 and 1945 when production ended for all time. In a feat of organization and industrial coordination unparalleled before or since, the U.S. Ordnance Department supervised the design and production from scratch of this second-most famous American shoulder arm of World War II. The M1 Carbine served in every single theater of the war and was present at every major and minor battle from the Philippines to Okinawa. When the Vietnam War ended in 1975, thirty-four years later, it was still in service with certain American special forces units, the U.S. Navy and with South Vietnamese forces.
Today, the M1 Carbine is one of the most popular U.S. military collector rifles. It is relatively inexpensive and offers a wide variety of collecting options. It is also a modern firearm and is therefore fun, easy and cheap to shoot.

The fact that it was manufactured by ten different companies, combined with the military's propensity for improving, updating and refurbishing its weapons has provided collectors with a great challenge finding and original, as-manufactured specimen or else restoring a battle- hardened veteran to original specifications. Perhaps 40 to 50% of all M1 Carbines manufactured were provided to military allies and friends during World War II and the Cold War. The first M1 Carbines available to the collecting public were those obtained from the Director of Civilian Marksmanship and they remained relatively few and far between. Then in 1986, Congress allowed the reimportation of a significant number of M1 Carbines and other military firearms considered to be collectible. Hundreds of thousands of M1 Carbines returned home. Most had been upgraded and refurbished in foreign armies, but with parts from the vast stores manufactured before production was shut down in 1945. The collector, faced with the task of restoring an M1 Carbine to its original condition can obtain parts readily available from many dealers, local gun shows or any one of a dozen or more mail order dealers. The problem is which part goes with which rifle. All told, there are more than 90,000 possible parts combinations for any single carbine!

"The M1 Carbine: Wartime Production" book provides this information. Through a combination of text and charts, every single part of the M1 Carbine manufactured by ten different manufacturers is listed by serial number range.

Is your M1 Carbine manufactured by Inland the barrel is stamped Saginaw Gear? This may or may not be correct depending on the serial number of your carbine.

The barrel date on your IBM Carbine is 1944 and it has a rear sight adjustable for windage. Is this correct. No. IBM manufactured M1 Carbines only until very early 1944. The windage adjustable rear sight (there are two variations to confuse things further) were not installed until beginning in mid-1945.

Will replacing a barrel or a rear sight reduce the value of my M1 Carbine? No, in fact if you install the correct part, the value will be increased.

You can take an M1 Carbine that saw its last service with the Israeli, South Korean or Philippine armies, for instance and which has undergone many repairs and refurbishments until there are only a few original parts left, and restore it to completely original condition, making it a very valuable collector's carbine.

In addition to explaining which parts are correct for which M1 Carbines by manufacturer and serial number range, the book also explains all those mysterious markings on wood and metal parts and shows how they can be used to select the correct parts for restoration.

Also included in the book are descriptions and proper identification for all accessories issued to the soldier with the M1 Carbine, including various types of ammunition. Also, complete instruction on assembly/disassembly and on maintenance and cleaning.

From the Publisher
While other books exist on the M1 Carbine, none exceed "The M1 Carbine: Wartime Production" in the completeness of its coverage. The book is currently in its third edition (1999) with new, up-to-date information.

http://www.amazon.com/US-M1-Carbines-Wartime-Production/dp/1882391233
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so ...they even give you instructions these days on how to do it

This was vet purchased just less than 2 weeks ago.

Mike, you provided some very insightful replies.
I see the guys at most every show going thru the M1 rifle and carbine parts bins with mag lights, loops and zeroxed reference book pages picking out parts by batch number and other characteristics in order to get arms back into "untouched" "Collector Grade" "textbook" and "all correct" condition! That is part of the reason why I hate those terms so much...along with the fact that I never heard any of them mentioned 20 years ago much less 40 years ago when I started collecting.

You are right when you said that collectors have different standards. It just seems to me more and more these days that so many people are willing to pay big money for things that simply "look" right compared to things that ARE right, but do not meet a popular criteria.

A goverment rebuild is nothing to aploigize for and is indeed "un-touched" in the context of a re-build.

Your example of a German uniform is very good. Generally only the national insignia and collar tabs were factory applied. Any other insigna was added after issue or purchase. In that sense any tunic with rank above that of a private, like NCO tress, chevrons or speciality badges has been "messed with". My point is that legit things were done all the time during the period of use to military equipment, weapons and uniforms. The trick in my opinion is determining what if anything has been done since the item was last used by the soldier.

I realize that most every re-built carbine and Garand was so done after WWII, neverthess they are still in fact "as issued" for that period after they were re-built.

I know what you’re saying jds, I know in some cases we have no choice but , overall I’ve never been a big fan of making excuses or explanations as to why an item is a “variant” . Factory documentation of various parts being used on a NEW Weapon, is one thing (and that’s a proven fact) And I could even accept if there was a 1 year or so spread between parts used (since we know that batch parts were used as needed) but I’m against saying that an item is 100% untouched when it’s obvious it didn’t come off the assembly line with parts produced almost 10 years apart.
Years ago no Collector would ever consider any rebuild as untouched ..just as today many Collectors will not own one of those Russian Capture -Electric Pencil engraved 98's.

Here’s an example …this year I bought a Postal Meter that came “From the Vet” …the Vet said that he’s owned it since the War and it’s been sitting in his Closet since.
Once I got it home …I learned that it was Arsenal Rebuilt in the 1950’s . So , even though it’s nice …there’s no way I could ever claim that this Carbine is a WW2 untouched example . But …as a Collector , I like to know more about the items I have (good and the bad) instead of just hearing people say Wow and gee that’s nice. . So yes it’s a Postal Meter and with a 1943 “Buffalo Arms” marked barrel (which the book says is correct for them when made during the War) not rare but not that common ..but not WW2 either. … There’s a big difference between the Weapons configuration as it came off the assembly line …and it’s config after a rebuild years later .

So did the Vet lie ? …he said he’s had it since the War …I assumed WW2 …he was probably talking about Korea.

As far as the Uniforms …ya started splittin hairs on me here . There was a period way of doing things ..you know that. I have 150 German Uniforms and the stitching , patch position, Collar Tab sewing etc ..don’t vary all that much. Last year another Collector from the Midwest who collects only Generals Uniforms visited me
…we were counting stitches on 2 Holters General Tunics and noting the similarities .
I couldn't believe we were doing that but when you’re talking about 8 to 10K for one Tunic , yes ..it’s easy to become anal.

Jds …I’ve been at it as long as you and remember well how Collector use to be over critical and scrutinize everything …even removing the Stock to make sure numbers matched. Maybe those days are over for some .

There’s nothing wrong with George’s ’03 , just as there’s nothing wrong with my Carbine….we just have to recognize them for what they are. I’m sure if George researched his ’03 ..he’d probably be able to find out which Arsenal rebuilt it and when ..if it was mine , I’d like to know...and the information is out there.
Sorry if you guys took my comments the wrong way …to tell you the truth, I regretted that I voiced my opinion here and I tried to delete all of my posts on this tonight but it said I didn’t have permission.
Anyway ...see you at the Max !

A beauty.
I recently saw an '03 with the slot for the Pederson Device. Nice shape, too.

Mike, I do enjoy the dialog and I am in no way taking your comments the wrong way.
My main point is that "factory original" condition is not the only legit baseline for original militaria, nor in many cases even the most desirable or valuable.

Some easy examples that come to mind are: camo painted German helmets, painted U.S.A.A.F A2 jackets, U.S. or German Ordnance level sniper rifles, SS conversion G-98 to 98k config. rifles, period upgrade Oberst tunics to General officer tunics (thousands done like this no doubt and this would play heck with Holters insignia stitch counts) and last U.S. AB jumpsuit pocket re-enfocement and camo painting on the cloth....ruins the factory condition of these items! These are but a grain of sand of the items modified, converted and upgraded at all all levels of the supply/maintenance system.

My other point is that factory condition mint collectors are not neccessarily more selective, more "purists" are more anything that those who seek out items that show overhaul and modification post factory release.

I will conceed that most U.S. rebuilds encountered will be post WWII (03s may offer the largest exception to this as many were re-built before and during WWII and not touched again...or even re-issued) and that fact does affect thier value as pure WWII as issued arms.

Read the section in the Ernie Pyle book "Brave Men" about his tenure with the Normandy small arms repair unit. I read this when I about 12 years old and it "changed my life" in regards to how a would later feel about re-furbed items. I would pay 4 times the amount for a proven "Ernie Pyle" Normandy rebuild (no way to ever prove it however!) than I would a mint unissued Garand from say 1942.

As far as the Tunics ...If you were a German Officer and could afford to buy a Holters Tailored Uniform back then ...you wouldn't let your batman do any sewing on it.
The A2's ? I sold one to a Gent down South who paid good money to have a Spectrum Analysis done on the paint to ensure it was WW2 done and not post war ...and Camo Helmets are selling for incredible money these days , that's prob why there are so many fakes out there. I heard they are doing SEM testing on those as well now.
Nobody wants a Post War Camo unless you're a reenactor.
The Snipers ..the post war 91/30's are still pretty cheap and fakes are easy to spot (handle weld is hard to hide)...and I have not seen a repro 98 with a Long Rail or ZF41 that even came close yet
We have to narrow our scope here because if we start generalizing about all the field modifications and whether an Aircraft Engine was mounted in a certain Stuart before they put a Gas engine in it or whether Holden modified 200 Jeeps for the Marines etc etc we'll start confusing the issue.
There were many variations , but what we are talking about here was pretty well documented.
The Government issued Contracts for the Arsenal rebuilds and the serial numbers were recorded.

What started it was George saying his was "Super crispy condition.
No markings on stock.Never fooled with.
Was`nt refinished "

I think the main comparison that applies here is the one re the Russian Capture 98's ...
They are reworked , and post war.
By the sounds of it , I guess the day will come when the Electric Pencil Serial numbers won't matter and they'll all be "rare collectors items"an excuse will be made ..a "Document" will appear that says the Electric Pencil numbers were applied in Jan 1945 so ..they'll be worth more.
Until research is done on his '03 ..we have no way of knowing when his was rebuilt ...therfore, we can't say it's in original WW2 untouched condition. It is what it is...a 1935 rebuilt '03 with a WW2 dated barrel.
As I said before ...my 1943 Postal Meter is not in it's orig WW2 config either.

Hi JDS ..You know our Hobby isn't exactly always "fair" ..and the collecting "trends" do change on a whim.
No matter what the books say or how an expert tries to tell us that something doesn't matter..trivial items matter in the Collecting World. Think of the guys with the maglights digging through part bins ...that's life.

If we set up at the SOS and put a rebuilt '03 on a Table next to an "all matching textbook" '03 , which one do you think the Collectors would pay attention to and probably buy first ?
...the Truth comes out when the Money comes out.
that's just how it is.

quote:

You are right when you said that collectors have different standards. It just seems to me more and more these days that so many people are willing to pay big money for things that simply "look" right compared to things that ARE right, but do not meet a popular criteria.

If you think this is only true here with firearms don't go looking at the dagger forums. "look" right is what it's all about over there any more.

Mike Peters assessment of the 03 that started this thread is accurate.

An FYI: I bought 2 skids of 03 stocks with some metal parts still attached for practically nothing at a sale of a woodworking shop that went out of business around 20 years ago. There was everything from scants to full pistol grips included.My understanding was they were going to make them into table lamps. Unfortunately I sold them off before the prices really started to rise on 03s.

Jim

depending on the markings & cond ..03 stocks sell for Hundreds these days. You had a gold mine in your hands Jim . Who could have known ?

Thanks for chiming in here ..I started wondering if I was the only one who looked at it from this angle. Since 03 rebuilds are a documented fact ..I have no problem with them. And if the price was right ..I'd buy one (or 2 or 3). But I'd never put them in the same catagory as a matching weapon ...no matter how many years pass , it will always be a rebuild to me.
Several years ago I bought a Smith Corona 03 from an old timer in town for $100..someday I'll get around to researching it ...if it's matching --Great. If it's a rebuild --who cares ...for $100 , I'm happy

Now I'm wondering if some of my remarks have been taken the wron way.

I have not suggested that faked items or even post war collector enhancements are alright. Actually I have been trying to stress just the opposite.

My main point, which I think has been acknowledged, is that the most desirable items are not always in factory condition. My secondary point has been just because an item appears to be in factory condition does not always mean that it is...so be careful when you pluck down 3k for a Garand if you are thinking that every part of it left the factory that way...there really is no way of knowing. On the other hand if you are happy with it being consistant with factory condition then you are getting what you want.

As to the 03 in question, I have no reason to suspect that it is anything other than a 100% as goverment re-built 03. The lack of stampings on the wood may give an indication of where and when the rifle was re-built as there is some excellent research that has been published and posted on these.

As to the Holter's General tunic up-grade, we both know that it was not always practical or even possible to send tunics back to the original tailor for repair and up-grade. Determining era of insigina attachement can be very much a "Kentucky windage" kind of drill. Although not related to anything on this thread, I will say that there were many tailors whose work was as good or better than Holters..even if Holters had the PR battle licked.

I know you didn't say "post War "enhancements" were alright" jds (wish I knew your fist name instead of your initials)
But we can't make excuses for rebuilds and white wash all of them as "acceptable" or untouched ..they are and always will be rebuilds.
Now ..here's where the money comes in. ---If I was ever going to spend 1-2-or3K on a Rifle ..you can bet your "bippee" that I'll dissect,examine,taste, sniff, analyze, and criticize in minute detail every part of that Weapon (in Due Form) before I'd buy it. I'd want to be 100% sure that someone hadn't "created" the matching weapon post war.
That's one reason I never bought a Garand Sniper ..even the CMP versions worry me. Collectors these days tend to be skeptics ..can ya blame 'em ? Like everything else in this Hobby , many things have been played with and many "doctored" ..it goes without saying that Today we have to sort through & research everything looking for that one Jewel to add to our Collection. Face value doesn't work anymore ..now we rely on Forensic Science.
JDS..You didn't answer my question regarding putting a mint rebuilt '03 on a Table next to an "all matching textbook" mint '03 ,(both with the same price) which one do you think the Collectors would pay attention to and probably buy first ?
The Books and experts might say a rebuilt doesn't matter ...to a Collector , it matters ...in his Heart he'll always know it's a rebuilt.

Mike, My first name is Phil. I guess my answer to you earlier question is "it depends". If we are talking about the same make and era 03s then yes I would generally prefer a non-rebuild to a rebuild. I don't know how much more the non-rebuild would be worth to me..I would have to see both rifles. Having said that, I would not consider rebuild any less GI or less historic than the non-rebuild...assuming that we are talking about a Gvt. arsenal product...in this case performed pre summer of 45...(I know hard to prove!). On the other hand I would prefer an original blued (never refinished)(say 80-90% ) WWI Sprigfield 03 even if a few parts were nor correct (say the bolt or the floorplate&follower) to a minty WWII factory condition Reminginton 03A3. That's just me and I really appreciate the true WWI rifles even if I had to hunt down a correct bolt some other part that would be fairly easy to find.

As I said before SS TK marked depot conversions of G-98s to K98s are also re-builds....I could live with knowing that. (big time!)

You example about the Garand sniper is well taken. My earlier point on all correct Garands, Carbines and 03s is that with diligent searching one can completly assemble an impossible to detect all factory correct weapon. This is something that most U.S. WWII collectors don't like to admit and I'm not saying it is that easy anymore as parts are expensive and getting harder to find.

I will not argue that all factory correct bring more money, but there is (or should be) more to military collecting than money. A legit military re-build (as opposed to a gunsmith restoration or a collector put together) is a valid military arm.