UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Presentation Sword to RK Winner

I would imagine that we are going to find out if it is fairly soon. FP

This piece came from the Gordon Henger collection out of Houston Texas. His son was selling this and the remainder of his collection at last years MAX in Indy.

Just three issues of discussion from me:

1) Houston: absolutely, you are correct; NCOs wore �officer� swords. Tons of photo evidence to that effect. However, this guy was a Gefreiter. I don�t think an officer/NCO sword would be the norm for that rank. I could be wrong on that.

2) Ron Weinand: I find your comment about me being a �young, impressionable john [sic] come lately� humorous. I appreciate the �young� reference. Being in my late 30s I don�t always feel that way anymore (yes, certain aches & pains have already started). As for being impressionable, I certainly was in my early years of collecting. That�s normal when someone is new and is seeking advice & council from supposed �experts�. I would characterize my current state of mind as jaded and aware. Where money is involved, bad deeds will follow. This hobby proves that more than anything I�ve ever experienced. It�s been a great education. But I love it, and study it as hard as I can so I don�t get bitten by the many sharks out there. As for being a �Johnny come lately�, I�ve been collecting for 20+ years, and haven�t missed a MAX show since 1988. Sure, I know people with 40+ years of experience in this hobby. But in most fields people with 20+ years of experience are given a certain amount of respect for what they�ve learned along the way. If I were in the military I would be eligible for retirement with 20 years service. For an officer, that would typically be a Lt. Col. The next you meet a Lt. Col. with 20 years service I suggest you give him the �Johnny come lately� line and see what happens. Although I have a passion for presented pieces, I�ve never characterized myself as an expert or authority. I have lots to learn. I just have informed opinions, much like everyone else.

3) Jim M: Thx for the offer to �reconfigure� and post the photos I was trying show, but I don�t think it really matters at this point. I think I�d rather not at this point anyway.

Have a great 4th of July everyone (well, in the US anyway).
Bob

Hmmm just one comment to Frederick J. Stephens post, since i am german.
Unfortunately on the one picture there is no way to see the complete etching, but what you mentioned in 1) is not entirely right.
It is gramatically correct to say "dem Herren".
I dont know if there is even a way to translate it to english but in german it is an absolute correct and very honorable way to adress someone. Herrn is more oftenly used on adresses like: Herrn M�ller
whatever street
whatever town
For plural use it must be "den Herren"

5 and 6) It might be that the piece was ordered when he achieved the 80th victory and got more before the piece was ready and it was adopted.
Or he was due to an new unit, command or whatever and was leaving the unit that presented the piece with 84 victories.

@jim m
it seems to be a good idea to be quite suspicious the more valuable the pieces get, today I meet with an old gentlemen who a couple of years ago bought the remains of the company H�ller with which most are you familia with i guess. And let me put it this way, he has enough original parts to manufacture over 100 daggers of various kinds. And the guy is a trained Schwertfeger (the ones who made the daggers) and there is no telling what he is doing with the parts.
And there is one thing that you can really trust me with, i would say 99% of the german collectors wont feel ashamed at all to sell a fake or made up piece to a foreign country.
So its always a good idea to be carefull.

Still i don�t want to offend anybody here, its just my two cents, as you say overthere.

Greets JT

Fred: All I know is that if I ressurected General Wolfe from the dead, videotaped him holding the sword and saying that it's the sword he got during the war, and got a DNA sample which matched the DNA on the grip of the sword, you'd say I'd fabricated the whole event.

In closing, I don't know why you are so upset about this thread. I did start it to illicit discussion from all quadrants, because you had cast a cloud over the piece, and I was determined to see that cloud lifted (which it has been). The only reason your reputation is harmed is because you insist upon continuing along a line of reasoning that has been shown ot be severely lacking. Admitting that you are wrong is not a shameful thing to do.

Gaspare - you should't find my comment insulting at all. I can say with no shame that I have NEVER had a piece with this much provenance. Sure, I've bought very high-end pieces directly from the living veterans or their families, but I have NEVER had a "First Hand" account of a piece from the original owner. I'd say that my statement is correct still - that 99% of collectors here are in a similar boat than I am. Hey - if you have a piece with more provenance, good for you - the comment then doesn't apply to you.

Bob J. you know I love to tease you all the time. I always feel you look like you just jumped out of a glass of milk!
I suppose you will be rather busy this week considering current events, but hope you find the time to read this as I don't want my comments to ruin any relationship we have established. Just fun!
Ron Weinand

I have just spoken to Vern. He has removed the two photos of a presented Luftwaffe dagger posted by Frederick J. Stephens at the request of Craig Gottlieb who took those photos and owns the copyright on them.

Dave

By the way - let it be known that Fred and I just spoke on the phone, and short of a minor problem we have yet to resolve, we ARE still on jovial and speaking terms. This might surprise some people, thinking that a hearty debate breaks friendships. Let me assure you - it does not. Also, the removal of the above photos was done at my request. Everyone knows about the controversy surrounding the great "Fight Inducing" dagger from last year's MAX. I don't wish to relieve the dreaded experience.

Hi Dave, why was my post removed as well.
All I said was thats going to please Rob.nl, knocking another one of his daggers. nats

Ron: And, I'm sorry if I took your comment about Bob out of the context of your jovial fun-making relationship. I perceived it to have been a cheap shot, as did others, but I'm glad to see that it was not.

Nats,

Vern might have, but did not have much time to chat. He is in his new house and the guy delivering the new washer and dryer had just arrived to install them.

Please re-post what you said

Dave

Hi Dave ,thanks for your quick reply,regards Stan

Hi Ron. No problem. i enjoy the ribbing when we're together at shows. i just figured that most of the people on the thread don't know me, so they probably wouldn't understand the context of your message. No hard feelings.

Bob

I got there too late to see the pictures. What did I miss ?

Dave

This is my answer to Frederick J stephens ,
I will not have you tear up my dagger ( yes its also mine )
DO NOT GO THAT ROAD !
Craig is NOT the owner , I am .
So you keep it civil , then I will do also , because this isnt funny anymore.
You think that you know it all , right ?
Well if you WOULD know it all , then you also WOULD know that he got his Eichenlaub with that 84th victory . So if you have your problems with somebody do not pull me into it , because I think nobody would want that .
I am wondering what I am still doing on this forum.

Oh, Boy. Something's hit the fan - I can smell it from here and I am 6000 miles away.

Jagdtiger 74 - Welcome to the Forum, you have certainly been busy with your replies, seeing as you only joined us two days ago. I expect that your colloquial understanding of the Solingen arms business and the German language is going to keep you busy with the rest of the membership. They will have heaps of questions to ask you - I know that I have.

I do not speak fluent German, only a knowledge of some technical things, plus enough to book my hotel room, pay for a meal, and to claim diplomatic immunity if I transgress your traffic laws.

I appreciate that you have spoken about the use of the word "Herren" - although, sadly, we cannot now continue this discourse because the photos have been removed. Never the less, let me thank you, because even in being corrected, I always appreciate the comments from someone who knows what they are talking about.

It also appears that I have transgressed the boundaries of acceptability, by including photos in my submission for which I do not own the copyright, and therefore the offending image has been lifted. It is a bit like dealing with eBay, really - I think the word is called "censorship". It is not a concept that I easily understand. This site is full of photos lifted from other sources (auctions, dealer sites, etc) and whereby the copyright is not even acknowledged. Suddenly - at the whim of some complainant - "offending images" can be removed in less than an hour or so. Have we now got our own Gestapo? (Well it would only be fitting - considering the subject matter that we are dealing with.)

Of course, I must be honest and admit that I took advantage of my privileged position - as I am often privvy to information and images that are not for widespread consumption. It appears that I made a vast error of judgement. And so I will apologise, publicly, to Craig.

Craig, I am sorry that I have abused the use of your copyright photographs. I can only offer the explanation of my belief that exposure of this fraudulent item would be of benefit to many; whereas restricting it from the public gaze would only be of benefit to a few. My defence is that - I made a mistake. My concept is - that the man who never made a mistake, never made anything.

With highest regards to all who have contributed to this thread.

Frederick J. Stephens

Ron NL

Your response came up on the site as I was posting my most recent commentary.

I will reply to you privately, by e-mail, in the next 24 hours.

Yours, respectfully,

Frederick J. Stephens

Your apology is accepted, Fred. I personally think that the Wolf sword has received as much coverage as it needed to. Both parties made their cases (me and Fred), we got a few comments thrown in the mix, and life goes on. Do I think I won the argument? Hands down. Do I recognize Fred's right to disagree? Yes I do. I don't "respect" his opinion here, and he does not "respect" mine (in the sense that we believe the other side). Truth is not relative, and someone is right, and someone is wrong. And in that light, I think we will just have to disagree.

I would like to clarify one point which Fred metioned: Pictures.

Many of the pictures posted on GDC were taken by someone else and that poses no problem unless the person that actually took that picture complains to us that someone else is using their picture without permission and requests its removal. In this case, Craig requested the removal of two composite pictures.

Dave

quote:

5) and 6) This is a real mystery - relating to the 84th Air victory. So odd, why would one commemorate the 84th event? Why not instead the 80th, or the 85th? I can see the logic in those, but not in the 84th. Of course there is one more point to make - the actual �Air victory� the word �Luftsieg� Normally, with this style the letter �s� in Luftsieg would be in the elongated �long-s� form - a little bit like a letter �f� but without the crossbar.

Fred, in response to this, here is a run down on the Schnaufer 1st Model Luft Dagger.

Schnaufer was a Major in command of Night Fighter Wing #4. He and his ME109 were taken prisoner by the Limeys. The plane use to be on display at Hyde Park in London at one time!. The tail section with the kills is on display in the Imperial War Museum, London. Involved in a auto accident in France 1950, Germany's greatest night fighter died at the age of 28!
Schnaufer was awarded the Oakleaves on the 24th of June 1944 following his 84th kill, and he received the Diamonds award after his 100th night victory. This is the reference to the etch on the blade of the 1st model Luft dagger.

Frederick J Stephens , with you saying that those 2 items are fake , that also means that the biggest collectors and dealers around the world have owned and sold those fake items! Thats kind of strange to say the least .
So , that means , untill the great Frederick J Stephens came around , they really didnt know what they were dealing with , is that right ?
Do you really think that you can really know how they worked at the Eickhorn factory?
If I tell you that the tang of the Wolf sword is stamped with an 8 , does that mean that Wolf made 8 swords?
Or does it mean that they knew who to return the sword to after the etching?
No , they probably made 8 postwar swords , and only one is still around. Oh no , even better , they made the etching postwar, thats right .
But why is there then the number 8 stamped?
If i tell you , that the other dagger that you were reffering to , was given by his fellow officers , and this has also been fotographed , then the pics are also postwar?
These items were around for a very very long time , and were in the hands of VERY well known collectors and dealers , but NO one EVER saw that they were fake?
Maybe I get a lot of punches to my head( that is correct ) but that is something that I dont understand .
Maybe it is because you are the allmighty fake detective , and all the others just blind , stupid and havent been collecting long enough to see a fake from real .
I dont have to tell you who those people are that I am talking about , they are the starters of our hobby , maybe you have read a book of them , I heard that sometimes they also brought out a book . Maybe even 2.
Do me a favor and go online and see if you can find some more fake daggers and swords that are beeng offered for sale, and please look here also , I really would like to see wich ones you say are real , and wich ones are fake to you.
Or was the case that everything Craig owned was fake?
For me , with those things that you have brought up , you havent convinced me at all , and this is NOT that I own these items , I can sell them right now if I please , to big dealers around .
Oh , I forgot , they probably dont know their way around with daggers and swords.
Well , I just have sell them now quickly before they read your post , right????

Dave, I only got a brief look before I went out, and when I came back it had been pulled. It was of a partially gold plated etched blade first model with what looked like the rank of a Captain (?) on the blade. Which seemed rather curious to me because if I remember the Luftwaffe regulations correctly. The 1st models would have been only for enlisted men by the time somebody had achieved that many kills. And in any case even a flying NCO would have been authorized by regulation the 2nd model. Why would a Captain or Major be awarded an enlisted man�s dagger?

Jagdtiger, You comments are very interesting and have what we would call here �the ring of truth�. I think I mentioned Roger Steele previously. And if remember it correctly one of his �specialties� was the creation of named pieces to various individuals. (There were also others in the same business). And because this was done in the late 1960�s - 1970�s. Some of the same companies and craftsman were used that had made the originals - often using leftover parts. What made some of Steele�s creations even more �special� were the restrikes of original medals/decorations that he included with some of the blades. Of course not every blade came with something extra. But it mirrors your statements. What has given away a noticeable portion of these �old school� fakes is that inscriptions or other factors are historically incorrect or otherwise wrong.

I guess we�ll never know much more about this last piece - other than there seem to be some questions surrounding it. Does anybody have an original copy of the Luftwaffe regulations? FP

Rob NL,

You clearly have problems with the items you have purchased. And if you really want to have them discussed openly, then YES, I will travel to Germany/Belgium/Flanders or wherever to discuss it with you. I have no problem in meeting you face-to-face.

Do you wish to have this confrontation?

Best regards

Frederick J. Stephens

JR (or anyone), Can you tell me what the blade actually says? All I remember is something that looked like Haupt****.

Also, the 84th kill was in June several weeks after �D� day. I have some knowledge of military contracts in Solingen both before �D� day and afterwards through the �Battle of the Bulge� in December. In January of 1945 Solingen was shut down. So when was the dagger supposed to have been made?

I�m going out, and won�t be back until later this evening so there is no rush. FP

Mistake , after the 84th victory he recieved the swords , this dagger , allong with a small pig , was given to tim by his buddys , that would explain why he got that dagger.

Rob NL,

It seems that you are still willing to discuss this dagger, because at the top of this page in your entry of 1 July, you state:
"If i tell you , that the other dagger that you were reffering to , was given by his fellow officers , and this has also been fotographed , then the pics are also postwar?"

Are you saying here that you have original photos of the dagger in wear/being presented?

In which case will you please tell us how you obtained them and put them up for viewing? And it would be nice if photos of the dagger itself and its unique etching were allowed to be seen. We are here to help you.

Hey, Craig!
How about now releasing permission to put up the photo images that you had Vern take down?

FJS

Rob, That would explain perhaps some of the circumstances. However, as I will explain, I have considerable doubts. Also please understand that I have no desire to cause you any more problems. You have been through quite a bit in the last few days that would be an unpleasant experience for anyone.

I don�t have the information that I assume was furnished to you when you purchased the dagger. But, in the brief time before the image was pulled, I saw what looked like a very attractive dagger made to possibly prewar standards - being a 1st model with an etched blued panel blade enhanced by gold plating. With the etching commemorating the 84th kill from a Luftwaffe officer pilot who later achieved 100 kills, which is a remarkable wartime achievement. If you have period photographs (preferably detailed) and documentation showing the presentation of this 1st model dagger by his comrades you can disregard my concerns which are listed below.
**********************************************

I also collect German combat arms (rifles, pistols, bayonets etc.). Because of my background, and without going into the details of the dagger�s construction, I have some issues which I think are relevant.

1) Late in the war daggers were not permitted to be carried and sidearms were to be pistols. 2) Luftwaffe regulations did not permit officers to carry the 1st model dagger which was restricted to enlisted Luftwaffe ground personnel.

In June of 1944 Allied forces were in Europe and bombing activity significantly increased both strategically and tactically. This had a significant impact on the production of war material which is reflected in the quantity and quality of German arms from that period. JR mentioned was that the British had taken him captive along with his ME 109. When was that?

In 1944, but especially after the invasion in June, Solingen itself was directly affected. While some makers were relatively untouched. Others suffered losses of production from as much as 25%, 40%, up to 70%. By January of 1945 all production was halted with factories destroyed or damaged, the transportation system disrupted, and a multitude of other problems (not the least of which is that Germany itself was about to be invaded.)

So I have to ask myself: The dagger had to be made between the time of the 84th and 100th kill. Otherwise I think it would commemorate his 100th kill. So I�m having a real problem understanding with all that was going on - how the maker found the resources to make such a fine quality EM (?) dagger later in 1944. Much worse IMO than having a piece called into question. Is discovering that a highly valued acquisition is a counterfeit.

So depending on the documentation that you have, if it�s not adequate perhaps Craig or someone else can provide some answers. You have already had some unpleasant experiences and certainly don�t need any additional ones. FP

Rob nl

I see what has been said about the 84th kill.

I quote, "Schnaufer claimed four further RAF four-engine bombers shot down on the night of 21/22 June (81-84). Hauptmann Schnaufer was awarded the Eichenlaub (Nr 507) on 24 June for 84 victories. He was awarded the Schwertern (Nr 84) on 30 July, with his victory total at 89". What I find very interesting is the interpritation of 84. Was this for his 84th victory, or was it that he was 84th Swords winner?

As an awards man, there are a number of questions that would send me to the corner to contimplate. If his 84th kill, then this puts the order for the blade after 24 June 1944, but then, he amasses more kills and gose up substantially with the swords. This is 30 July 1944. This is 36 days latter than the 84th kill. Bless me, thinking of the award by his Buddies, comisioning, then making, then gifting, 36 days? Smart bit of work. OK then it came latter, do you then give him the gift for past sucess? Perhaps one might have thought lets re think and find another gift. But, In September 1944, IV./NJG 1 retreated back into Germany, being stationed temporarily at Dusseldorf and Dortmund. This meens that the buddies are on the move. Great but the dagger is on the case. Anothe problem raises its UGLY HEAD, naughty boy Schnaufer achieved his 100th victory on 9 October 1944. He was awarded the Brillanten by Adolf Hitler on 16 October 1944.

So from the 84th kill to 100 th kill was 107 days. Three rises in the KC range. The question is begged, how long dose it take to, think, decide, commision, make, send and then present? When the man gets the diamonds, would the dagger for the oakleaves be applicable.

Just to be pedantic, Schnaufer flew Me-110's.

Dwight, You might be just a little pedantic. No, just kidding . The point is well taken, and a radar equipped ME 110 makes more sense. I think some earlier night fighters might have been ME 109�s. But using the MK 10 eyeball instead of radar.

Of considerable interest is Christopher Ailsby�s comments. I never did get the full inscription or the dagger�s maker, but am looking into bomber raids and like activities over the German homeland in the time frame he specified. And more specifically in the general area where Solingen is located.

In peacetime there is a lag between when something is ordered and it�s finally ready for delivery to the customer. But in wartime with the enemy on the continent, and obviously intent on invading Germany itself, what kind of time might have been involved to create a unique presentation dagger?

From dated items from Solingen in that time frame we know that they ran out of ordinary materials and that factory manufacturing standards were dropped considerably. But what then about the specialized tools/equipment needed to make the dagger? Chemical baths for instance have a finite life and take up valuable factory space. And besides the chemical baths there is other specialized equipment. Were workers pulled off factory military production lines to procure the necessary materials and set up the equipment for a special production run?

The factories were under the nominal control of the German Army. I have always been amazed that series civilian (non Wehrmacht) production was allowed as late as early 1942. Could this be a mid to late 1944 example of same?

The answer may be in the photographs and documentation. Which we will hopefully see sometime soon. FP

C'mon Craig, and Rob NL,

Serious questions are being asked here. You are not frightened to go public are you? Your answers are eagerly awaited.

Frederick J. Stephens

All the small details aside, focus on a big question:

How come a hero in 1944 was awarded a dagger that had been obsolete about 6 years earlier and could NOT be worn by officers ?

Joe

Have you thought about requesting a refund ? Seriously ?

quote:

Originally posted by JoeBo:

Have you thought about requesting a refund ? Seriously ?

He does not need to be worried about anything though, as he has a lifetime warranty.

Again not being a blade person, but medals and awards being my great interest, this dagger gives me cause for contemplation for its presentation. Rob nl states,"after the 84th victory he recieved the swords , this dagger , allong with a small pig , was given to tim by his buddys , that would explain why he got that dagger." This is outside the normal practice of fighter pilots. Carrying on the tradition of the First World war, which is emblamatically shown by the Luftwaffe honour gobblet, small silver snaps beackers were given for kills. These were inscribed with the date and type of plane downed. These were normally placed on a silver salver.This tradition was widly held and the beakers were used in the mess.Taking this for what it is worth, why would his Buddies fly against tradition and convention?

Frederick J Stephens , do NOT try to treat me als a child , dont send me friendly personal messages , and be paitronising here .
I will not have it . If YOU want , I will see you next week in England , then I will show you how frightened I am. If you want to behave to Craig like this , fine , dont do it to me.
So ,
You guys know it all , all my stuff is fake .
You guys know more then all the big dealers and collectors that have been in the bussines for 40 years .
I wondered what would happen if I showed my SS honor.I will not be laughed at here , so this will be my last post.
So Stephens , if you are a man , and YOU would like to go public , let me know.
I am in your country , and can come by your house.

Snaps beacker

snaps beackers again

individual beacker

salvers, with unit badges

Rob NL, please do not misunderstand me, I am not being patronising to you. I sent you a private message because I genuinely wish to help you. My experience and knowledge is at your disposal - if you want it.

I am not trying to make you believe in what I say, only you can make up your mind whether you consider that I present a reasonable debate, or if I do not.

If you decide to come to England, then I will be very pleased to meet with you. I live in the north-east of the country, the city of Hull is about 30 miles from me, and there is a regular ferry service to Holland. If you want to come by ship I will meet you at the port arrivals.

I think there may have been a translation misunderstanding in my use of the word "frightened". It does not mean "frightened" in the physical sense - it was a "challenge" to speak up, or reveal your evidence. It is the same type of challenge that Craig put to me to offer a controversial opinion about the Wolf Sword.

So, Rob, if you wish to come to England then I will be very pleased to meet you. I am not a dealer or a trader, so I don't have anything to sell you, but I can show you some interesting daggers.

I can also assure you that you will be treated with respect, civility, and total honesty. So please advise me if you will be accepting this invitation? Thank you.

Yours sincerely

Frederick J. Stephens
(FJS)