UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Presentation Sword to RK Winner

I'M ALL EYES!!!
LETS SEE THE DAGGER!!!

YES, PLEASE SHOW THE SCHNAUFER DAGGER

Yes, please show the copyrighted photos of the Schnaufer dagger according to the fair use of a copyrighted document.

Link to U.S. Copyright Office

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Let me be perfectly clear. I expressly forbade Fred from using ANY photographs of ANY piece I shared with him - Schanufer Dagger, Birdshead Dagger, anything. If he posts photos of any of my material, he's breaking his word.

I have my reasons, which I have made abundantly clear. The long and short of it is that I do not have the time or patience to resurface and reinvent the public relations nightmare that came about as a result of this piece. My actions were misinterpreted from the beginning, with respect to this piece and how I obtained it, as all of you know. Any detractors of mine will intepret this as some sort of "secret fear" of a deeper type, and I cannot control that. Make no mistake - I am being very candid with you all on this subject, and ask that you respect my wishes.

I would much rather be known as the founder of a popular and useful website, a dealer who sells quality original merchandise, and who is readily available to help out collector and competitor alike, a guy who throws free parties at the MAX and SOS, who is abrasive yet friendly, and who has in the past been a strong collector advocate, having spent countless hours defending and advising many people on this very thread, to make wise purchasing decisions.

I would like to think that I have earned the good graces and benefit of the doubt from the collecting community, even from Fred. Fred and I obviously disagree on a variety of issues, but I have continually maintained a professional (but firm) attitude toward him, despite my open criticism of some of his ideas, and dispite his personal assaults on my character, which I have great trouble understanding.

You can't get it BOTH ways Craig!

Some of us have been asking to see the photos of the Schanufer since you..er.. bought it at the MAX.
You seem to want to "restore" your reputation but you refuse to do what is only fair. And that is to show it. You want us to give you the benefit of the doubt, however you will not act in a proper fashion that deserves it.
Here..I have been trying to see it since last October.... And Yes ..SHOW US THE SCHANUFER DAGGER!

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/217096573/m/5940099154

Gee, what happened to this thread? Last time I checked it was 11 (eleven) pages long!! Now it's TWO pages!!

-wagner-

Wagner (Serge Mache) - you are mistaken about the above thread. Nothing was deleted or modified. I know as I was watching.

Dave

Yes, please show us the Schnaufer dagger pics, and while you're at it, kindly clarify the correct spelling. I've seen Schnaufer and Schanufer on this page, alone.

Thanks-

My mistake then. Thanks Dave.
-wagner-

Gee

Keeping ones word amonst Gentlemen is 1 thing but in this case...Show the Pictures.Not for the reason that its a God awful fake that you would not buy in a Pakistani Grocery store but rather for the reason to inform collectors on How good Repro guys were and are these days.This is supposed to be a place to learn...it says it right on the front door for Gods sake. "A community for German Dagger enthusiasts to share their hobby with like-minded collectors. Learn, share your knowledge, as well as buy, sell, and trade German daggers." Makes no mention of Hiding pics to protect Reputations.

I know that some people are legitimately curious, and others just love a soap opera. A good friend of mine (a collector who is posting on this thread), once wrote to me . . .

"There's always a lot of jealousy when someone like you get sucessfull in such a short period of time. Nobody would be talking about you if you were a real looser. Remember that it is always lonely on the top!"

My reputation doesn't need restoring. My merchandise, my track record for excellence, my service to the community, and my lifetime guarantee . . . that is what I am judged by. I might be a jerk and abrasive sometimes, but I guess I can't help that! I do respect people's curiosity, but unfortunately, I have a legitimate reason that I have clearly stated, for keeping this business my own. Unfortunately, public curiosity will take a back seat to my own personal desires in this case.

Often "the public" won't get close-up detailed photos of many pieces. The Goering Industrial Dagger, even though I have the best set of photos around (taken by me because I owned the dagger), is one example. A damascus birthday degen (my 2nd) is another example. Other famous pieces owned (and bought and sold) by notable collectors and dealers are also never shown, even though we'd all love to see them. Some reasons are good reasons, others are not good reasons. I ask for benefit of the doubt with respect to my reasons, and nothing else.

To add to my reasons for narrowing the bandwidth of photos I will post, is the treatment that the Wolf sword got on this thread. Despite overwhelming support from a host of very experienced people (all of whom actually handled the sword), a small vocal minority who never handled it can make quite an impact. This is why many dealers expressly forbid the posting of their photos online. That is why many collectors do NOT share their collections online. Good honest dealers protect their photos with watermarks and extensive written prohibitions against use. I am not that strict, but I have my limits. And comparatively, my limits are more liberal than most.

Still, I don't care if 100% of the "vocal minority" believed the Wolf sword to be incorrect. I believe in it (and have good reason for doing so), and the customer believes it. I have been attacked on other forums for being gay (I have no problem with gay people at all), for making SS Honor Daggers, for having Aids, for cheating on my wife, for killing Brant Murphy, for being part of a vast-dealer-conspiracy - you name it. None of it is true. In all my actions, popular or not, I can maintain my integrity and self-respect, and that is the best a man can hope for.

In summary, for a very clear advertisement for a) the objectivity of this forum, and b) my reasons for not digging up the past, refer to the thread that Wagner was kind enough to post:

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/217096573/m/5940099154

Craig,

My interest in the Schnaufer dagger is purely educational and I don't care about the circumstances in which you acquired it. I have been a member of GD for 3 years and I truly appreciate the valuable knowledge I have learned from the forums and members. I understand and respect your desire to protect your reputation. I hope that you will see that members like me desire to learn more about rare daggers like yours.

Best regards,
Dane

Dane: I sincerely appreciate your comments. I do wish I could post EVERYTHING I have ever found that would be educational and interesting, for discussion and learning. Unfortnately, your respectable academic interest (and the respectable academic interests of other fine people on this thread)is drowned out by other less-respectable interests. I sincerely wish it were not the case.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Hohaus:
Fred,

If someone else took those photos - and therefore owns the copyright of them - you may NOT post them without that person's stated permission. If the person who took the photos objects - again - The photos will be deleted .... again.

And, whether you get 5 or 5000 requests, the above statement stands.

Dave

Butt, covered. 1 ea

Craig:
I was going to respond to you email and decided to do this publicy instead.
We have known each other since I've been in this hobby. In fact, you were the first GDCer I met in person in the Executive Inn Lobby at the start of the 2002 SOS Show. We chatted in the lobby while your assistant stood dutifully by holding your daggers for you. I was subsequently introducted to this "assistant" who turned out to be Steve Wolfe.
I all the years I've known you I can honestly say I believe you to be an honest and sincere person who would never knowingly peddle a fake. I have defended you on this and some of the other false accusations both here and in other venues.
You have an item here that is in dispute. I've never seen it and many of the others here have not seen it either. However; refusing to show photos is not going to resolve anything. I believe you're in the position where,as undesirable as this may be, your going to have to do this and let the chips fall where they may.
The only other viable alternative I can think of is to ask Rob to bring the dagger to the MAX and have and independent panel inspect it and render a judgement.

Jim

Under copyright law, fair use and educational purposes are valid reasons for free use of copywrited material, provided the owner of the material does not object. If the owner objects, the material must come down. An individual can file suit in federal court to prove that the objection is harmful or arbitrary and request a court order for use of the material. If the court order is qranted, the material can then be posted.

This is the standard set by our service provider, and they will step in to remove copywrited material if we don't. Sorry but those are the facts of life. No one is covering anything, we're just trying to keep the forum available.

We will remove any material posted if the copywrite owner contacts us. Individuals who continue to post such material after the owner objects may lose their priviledge to post attachments.

Vern:
First let me start of with "I don't know or care if either piece in question is right or wrong". My only comment is with all this nonsense about "Copywritten Property". I have more than my share of legaly copywritten photos. Every Calendar I published was fully copywritten. Every year I had to fill out the forms in triplicate and supply two copies of the material and pay $30 to $50.
Merely taking a photo does not give you any copywritee protection. So the real question is were those particular photos ever legally copywritten. If so, the person who filed for it would have received a confirmation or certificate stating this.
Another way around this quandry would be to find a photo taken when it was owned by someone else.

I consider myself a fair minded person and in my opinion any seller who refuses to have his wares examined in an open forum is not a person to do business with.

regards, Bill

quote:

I have a legitimate reason that I have clearly stated, for keeping this business my own. Unfortunately, public curiosity will take a back seat to my own personal desires in this case.

Craig,

With reference to the above quotation, which you posted today, I have no recall of you clearly stating the reasons why you were "keeping this business my own". Nowhere have you given this statement or explanation. You are quite a master at the smoke and mirrors technique of avoiding uncomfortable truths; or pretending that you have made a masterly counter argument - when in fact you have said little at all.

Now I don't give a hoot about what you buy and sell your merchandise for - that is a private arrangement between buyer and seller. However I do think that the passing of faked-up pieces is not a private matter - it is a public interest matter, and on this forum I do not think that such public interest material should be restricted under the specious claim that it is copyright. Yes, the material is copyright - but the claim of copyright is being used to protect someone who will utter a counterfeit.

This site was not set up to protect such abuses. It was set up to help those who wanted to collect, and who wanted to learn how not to get caught by the unscrupulous.

I put it to you, Craig Gottlieb, that the real reason you are witholding permission to view the dagger is because you know that the etching is falsified. You knew that information from me, when you e-mailed me images - and I replied immediately to you. You also know it from associates around you, who pointed out the failing on the dagger when you first acquired it; and finally you know it from yourself, when you declared it to be fake (sorry, you just said to "pass up on it, just to be on the safe side") then went back later to buy it for yourself.

The Schnaufer dagger now rests in the collection of Rob Hanneman (Rob NL) so here is an open letter to Rob.

Rob NL - you may very well think that I have a campaign against your collection - I do not. I have only good desires to help you, like I would help any other collector new to this hobby. There is a big question mark over your Schnaufer Dagger - but there are people here on the GDdotcom site that want to silence me from speaking.

So I speak to you directly, Rob, would you like to know what it is that I know about your Schnaufer Dagger - and why the etching on the blade is wrong?

If you invite me to speak up, then nobody can stop me, and nobody can cancel the images, it is your dagger, after all, and this is a matter of public interest.

Please respond to this thread, Rob - and do not be swayed by any inducements to not comply with this, because they are not being offered with your better interests in mind.

Sincerely

Frederick J. Stephens

TO FREDERICK J. STEVENS,ITS ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO READ YOUR POSTS.YOU PUT INTO WORDS WHAT MOST PEOPLE ARE THINKING.I REMEMBER A FEW YEARS AGO WHEN I BOUGHT MY FIRST THREE DAGGERS IT WAS YOU WHO CONVINCED ME THAT THEY WERE FAKES AND FORTUNATELY I WAS ABLE TO GET MY MONEY BACK.I THINK ANYBODY WHO DOESNT LISTEN TO YOUR ADVISE IS FOOLISH AND YES I WOULD BUY ANY BOOK THAT YOU WRITE. SINCERELY, JOE LINGE.

How dare you, Fred. I have stated this before and will state it again for the record: The whole reason I did not want to post this dagger is because of the HUGE controversy surrounding the alleged way in which I acquired this dagger. Everyone knows the dagger caused me bad press in the beginning due to 3rd party gossip, and I have told many people that for this reason alone - for the misinterpretation of how I came to possess it - I did not want it to become fodder for public gossip again.

Your conspiracy theories are rude and invasive. You are again knowingly suggesting that I am a crook, and until you apologize for publically second guessing me, you will get nothing from me. I think that is the fairest way to proceed. PLENTY of people have photos of this dagger, and most people like it, just like most people like the Wolf dagger, the Birdshead that I found earlier this year, the NSKK High Leader, etc etc. Rob owns the dagger. It is his piece. If he chooses to post it, he may do so with my permission now. If he chooses not to post it, that is his decision also. I suggest you live with his decision, as the piece is his and he seems to be happy with it, and with the sword.

I have nothing to hide from you Fred, or anyone else. Folks - Fred will proceed to rip the dagger apart, as he tried to rip the Wolf sword apart, as he has tried to rip the NSKK High Leader apart, as he has proceeded to rip my birdshead apart.

Fred will, if Rob posts, say that the dagger has the wrong type-face for his tastes, that it is nickle silver which is wrong for him, and that it is an NCO dagger when Schnaufer was an officer at the time the piece was awarded. He will also say that the etch is not laser perfect - another argument that was heavily contested by knowlegable people in the field of blade collecting. I have ready and reasonable answers to all three of those challenges, which are supported by daggers and swords in the collecting community that are accepted as real. Frederick Stephens cannot prove the dagger is wrong (or the sword for that matter), just as I cannot prove that it is right. He can state his opinions, and we are free to agreee or disagree with them.

Fred needs to apologize for calling me a crook in public - he has no basis with which to make this charge, and I think that readers are losing sight of this assault on my personal character, all in the interest of curiosity about a dagger. C'mon folks. I have been accused of being rough on poor old Fred, and yet he is the one that consistently calls me a crook in public, second guesses my plainly stated reasons for doing something, and makes it personal. I have only criticized his ideas in this entire thread. And that is no crime.

20109 views, 420 replies. Wow. Probabaly one of the most viewed and controversial threads in GDC history. Cool

Good reading by the way and certainly some learning points here. That's my only contribution to this thread .

One thing that this thread has taught many people (at least, some of the advanced collectors who have written me privately and have no taste for publicity). It has taught them never post their "PhD Level" pieces anywhere for public discourse. It's a shame that the forum which I designed to help collectors has morphed into one that sometimes hurts them by causing some really great and knowlegable collectors with some amazing pieces, to NOT share them with the public. Why else do you think that some of the best items in the world are not displayed publically (diamonds orders, personality tunics, etc)?

Hey Guys bury the hatchet,sword,dagger, flag,helmet,ring,tunic,but most of all this thread.I thought I was bad.

Hi Craig.

I respect you and Mr. Stephens very much, and I regret that this thread has evolved into so much personal acrimony. You started this site, and for that you should be duly proud.

I must say Craig, I don't know why you started this thread back in March in the first place if you didn't really want to engage in this 'battle to the death' with Fred Stephens over this sword.

Moreover, I do not understand your argument (at all) that by posting these photos the negative PR of your acquiring that dagger at the MAX show will be magnified. If anything, your refusal to allow the photos to be posted is the only thing bringing that incident to life. Also, I defended you to the hilt in the wake of the sale of that dagger at the MAX show here on the forum. Everyone knows that story:

- The Swede asked you if it was good

- You said you had doubts, but took a closer look later and got second opinions from friends

- You bought the dagger

- The Swede got in your face at the bar and wanted to fight about it

OK. Got it. The guy wasn't really a friend of yours, and you were just giving an off the cuff opinion where you later changed your mind. People have pieces in and out of their hands at every show. That controversy is over. Done. Complete. Terminado. Fini.

This one only has life now because of the "Secret Photos."

Myself, I don't think that even if they are posted, there will be any smoking gun - or anything near a definitive end to this.

Not posting them is a mistake on your and Rob's part. It simply "feeds the beast."

Sooner or later, you will realize this.

Something else you said on this thread, about the Forum being "dead."

Well, I have to agree - this particular thread notwithstanding. It is one of the few things generating any interest. I think you are correct about everyone loving a show.

The real reason the forum is dead Craig is because of heavy handed editing and deleting of posts, and the unjust banning of good forum members like Denny, Johann, Manfred Vogel, and others.

I wish this controversy would die, for while I don't post here very much anymore, I do read and log on to continue my education in the hobby - but I must admit this place is not nearly as enjoyable as it was just a short time ago.

I went to church today, and the sermon was on Kindness. Everyone wants kindness. I sure do. I always remember those who showed it to me. But, not everyone gets kindness, or is treated with kindness. I know, however, that everyone wants to have a friend who acts so.

You know what would really be a welcome turn of events in this thread is if both parties said: "Look, I may have gone over board a bit with my comments here and there, so lets shake and start over."

It would take both to say this, and then I think this discussion could concentrate on the edged weapons at hand.

Thanks for the opportunity to post.

Take care.

Truly, this is where I see the topic of the sword and the dagger has gone. The sword has totally been discussed and opinions were presented pro and con,both sides. That's where it stands and collectors were give all the information to read in interest.

With the dagger, Craig has stated that Rob is satisfied with the purchase of it (and Rob has too), and that's it. Rob doesn't want to post it, doesn't want to have it discussed any further,and doesn't want to return it. Both of the items have come with Craig's guarantee and Rob content with his purchase. The buyer is happy, the seller guarantees his items to the complete satisfaction of the buyer. That should be pretty much the end of it.

At this point, I think this thread has run it's course. If Rob wants to post the photos in a new thread, great. Otherwise, it is just a rehash of previous posts. Time to close this one, I think