UBB.threads Forums General Militaria Flags, Field Gear, and Miscellaneous Militaria and Regalia Forum Hitler Standard

Hello all,..... Dose anybody know what became of the Hitler standard? The one I'm curious about is the same size as the Germany awake flag and was also displayed using a similar rig (Eagle-wreath box etc) I do recall seeing a photo of victorious red army soldiers paradeing with a large number of captured Army/Luftwaffe standards as well as what looked like part of the Adolf Hitler box, pole and eagle etc, but no standard? I also read that the standard was stored in the russian archive rolled up in a cardboard tube!........ If you have any information about the whereabouts of this magnificent item (maybe its hanging on your wall!) do tell.... The various photographic and film footage that exists of this superb item show it to be of the finest detailed embroidered construction...Were this item to be in the collecting community it would surely rank as one of the most desirable and important nazi items one could hope to posses, far more so than say one of fat boys jewelled daggers!

There were many Hitler standards (flags). Wherever he went, they raised the flag that represented him. Same for Himmler. Several were for sale on and off over the years and are usually easily located if you ask the high end dealers.
The only standard that there was only one of, for a very high ranking personality in the Third Reich, was the Reichprotektor banner (often associated with Reinhard Heydrich as he used it in his position as Deputy (but in practice the real), Reichprotecktor of Bohemia and Moravia) which I acquired at the SOS in 2004.

Mark

It is indeed rightfully in Russia in a museum.Read all about it in the Urlic of England book DEUTSCHLAND ERWACHE

Zorro...there was only one Hitler standard? I was under the impression there were several...but only since I personally have seen several Himmler standards and was told that the same was true for AH. But, I learn something new every week or so in this hobby.

What is the low down on how it was taken to Russia?

Mark

The Russians only captured the eagle top and box. The standard was taken from Sepp Dietrick and his men when they surrendered to the Americans in, I believe, Austria.
It was then given to Bob Hope and was seen on certain occasions above his desk in his CA home.
The Russians found out Hope had the piece and tried several times to get Hope to give it to them since they had the top and pole.
Where it is today, I cannot say, but I believe it was part of his estate when he passed away.
I KNOW that Hope was a closet collector and received MANY TR items from the soldiers during the war, many of which were important.
I really wonder if they will ever re-appear with anything to do with Bob Hope or his estate.
Not to imply that these will be destroyed, but that they will be disposed of in another manner in my opinion to avoid any publicity.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
PS: In one of Johnny Carson's Tonight Shows, the framed lower portion of the standard was visable when his new CA home was featured on the show in an office shot with Hope at his desk. I REMEMBER SEEING IT MY SELF and almost fainted.

Ron-
That info is interesting and beleivable because of Bob Hope's involvment with the troops.
I was under the impression that that particular standard had never been found and was still missing.It is somewhat hard to think that Sepp Dietrich would allow this peice to fall into enemy hands though.
It was very unselfish of you to share that knowledge. Thanks.
I guess there still is some great stuff still out ther waiting to be discovered.

It's never a two way street with the Russians, they have a sense of entitlement when it comes to acquiring items deemed necessary for a positive portrayal of the 'Great Patriotic War', but are loath the return certain items such as Imperial standards that the Germans have been asking for, for years..

As well, there is a rumour that the pole top of the blood flag has been located in Germany..

I've always heard all of this also,,and don't really believe it because sometimes the story is switched and that Hope had the Blood Flag..
My wife's friend worked in that museum and said as soon as the USSR broke up there were Americans and English going there just to try and buy items from the museum. He said they did let a couple of these collectors in to their storerooms but to the best of his knowledge no items were sold from the museum proper.. He did say these collectors were allowed to take detailed photos and even had a few pieces speced out to have copies made.He said the most wanted and photographed,studied pieces were the standards and pole/tops, also the Russians themselves were having copies of pieces made for a short while...

This story has been going around since Hope died that the flag was returned to Russia but this photo of only a few years ago clearly shows the pole is without flag.. I'll see if I can contact him and get the current status or maybe one of our Russian members will know how it appears now.. I know it sounds/seems crazy but with the expertise of some of the craftsmen from East Europe to copy things I wouldn't trust the piece is it did suddenly appear! Sorry just MHO...,G.

On the subject of the Blood Flag,I read that it was destroyed in a fire during an air raid. Do you think there's any truth to that?
Also,does anyone know the last confirmed sighting of it during the 3rd Reich?

I think that this topic needs some tighter definition.

Are we discussing the personal flags / banners that were used on residences and vehicles or paraded when he showed up ?

Or are we discussing the Blutfahne - or famous "Blood Flag" from the Beer Hall farce ? If it the Blutfahne, I think it was stored in the Braun Haus in Munich when not being carried by Jakob Grimminger. From what I read, it was thought to have been destroyed in a air raid .... but who knows?

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Howard Julian-Harvey:
Hello all,..... Dose anybody know what became of the Hitler standard? The one I'm curious about is the same size as the Germany awake flag and was also displayed using a similar rig (Eagle-wreath box etc)

Agree with Dave - I think we are actually discussing three different flags/standards.

1. The 2nd version D.E. of the Leibstandarte which I believe Howard originally inquired about.
2. The Hitler Standard that was flown/displayed whenever Hitler was present.
3. The Blutfahne that Dave correctly describes.

Howard, if your question is in fact, about the Leibstandarte D.E., here is what I have been told. The standard was seperated from the pole before the victory parade in Moscow, which is apparent in pictures taken during the parade. Due to ignorance on the part of the Russians, the standard remained in the same museum as the pole & top but was never completed. It was not discovered until an American collector named George Peterson visited the Kremlin museum in the early 1990's. At that time, he saw the standard and immediately realized what it was. Due to his knowledge, the standard and pole were reunited. Four or five years ago, a display named something like "WWII in Russian Eyes" toured the U.S. Several regimental standards, including the SS Leibstandarte standard were displayed.
I am typing this from memory so feel free to correct or expound on my comments. Hope this helps.....

Stories conveyed are still stories and how very convoluted they become.

The Mr. George Peterson in mention is the very experienced, informed and educated on the subject and the owner of:
"National Capital Historical Sales Inc" (Alexandria, Virginia)
5810 Kingstowne Ctr # 120, Alexandria, VA 22315-5732

Mr. Peterson maintains a very busy and hectic schedule but if one cares to contact him, I believe that he will willingly convey his personal experiences and the truthful story. (keeping in mind his 'hectic' schedule when his replies may be short and to the point)

His telephone number is: (703) 971-8535
and his web site address is: http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_hhmsts

George has the hands on experience and will reveal truthful stories that will make one laugh, cry and nearly die with want and desire.

Hi John,
Is the story I related above, correct?? If not, please let us know as I'm sure many other collectors have heard the same story.

I can tell you the photo I posted is the pole and top for the LAH DE type flag.. There is nothing on it in that photo and its only a few years old.

I'd love to get the story from G.P. on all this.

NSDAP rally Nuremberg 1933

SA Honour hall NSDAP office Munich

Ugh.Those boots!! a months KP where I served.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Degens-
Great interesting photos.Thanks for the chance to veiw them.
On the SA Honor hall photo,are those bronze plaques in between the 2 standards? Do you have any idea what there about?
Thanks

The photos unfortunately are not mine, but I believe the plaques bear the names of the 16 who died during the Beer Hall Putsch 1923.

Taken from Wiki >

The sixteen fallen were regarded as the first 'blood martyrs' of the NSDAP and were remembered by Hitler in the foreword of Mein Kampf. The Nazi flag they carried, which in the course of events was stained with blood, came to be known as the Blutfahne (blood flag) and was brought out for the swearing in of new recruits in front of the Feldherrnhalle when Hitler was in power.

Shortly after he came to power, a memorial was placed at the south side of the Feldherrnhalle crowned with a swastika. The back of the memorial read 'Und ihr habt doch gesiegt!' ("Yet victory was yours"). Behind it flowers were laid, and either policemen or the SS stood guard in between a lower plaque. Passers-by were required to give the Hitler salute. The putsch was also commemorated on three sets of stamps. Mein Kampf was dedicated to the fallen and, in the book Ich Kämpfe (given to those joining the party circa 1943), they are listed first even though the book lists hundreds of other dead. The header text in the book read "Though they are dead for their acts they will live on forever." The army had a division named the Feldherrnhalle regiment, and there was also an SA Feldherrnhalle division.

Every year (even during the war up to 1942) a commemoration, attended by Hitler, took place in Munich, the centrepiece of which was usually a recreation of the march, from the Burgerbräukeller to the south side of the Feldherrnhalle. Every Gau (administrative region of Germany) was also expected to hold a small remembrance ceremony. As material given to propagandists said, the sixteen fallen were the first losses and the ceremony was an occasion to commemorate everyone who had died for the movement.

On November 9, 1935, the dead were taken from their graves and to the Feldherrnhalle. The SA and SS carried them down to the Königplatz, where two Ehrentempel (Honour Temples) had been constructed. In each of the structures eight of the martyrs were interred in a sarcophagus bearing their name.

Thanks for the reply Degens.
That honor hall photo is mesmerizing.
To see those all those relics without a mob around them has me seeing them in a new way.
Wish I could see up close all the photographs on the walls,read those plaques, and know whose offices those were.
Do you know if it is a Heinrich Hoffmann photo and did'nt that building survive the war?

reply moved to this thread..

"Hi Denny,....Thankyou for your input, you are totaly correct on all points. I should have described the "Hitler standard" correctly as the Leibstandarte DE at the start of this debate, it's just that since I first saw pictures of the standard as a kid, (many years ago) I have always refered to it incorrectly as the Hitler standard, even though similar in design but of smaller size than the actual Hitler standard flag proper......Anyway, I can now confirm that the Leibstandarte DE is indeed in the Russian archive and now recognised by them as such. However for reasons unknown, it still remains in storage and not on public display?......I must just also say that I find it so very dissapointing that this rare and important item is not given the care and respect that it rightfully deserves!......With this in mind I do therefore hope that if the larger Hitler standard flag has survived, it is in private hands and being looked after in a similar way as Mark (keeper of the Reichprotecktor banner shown earlier)looks after his, dehumidified and out of sunlight etc.......And finaly, once again if anyone dose happen to get a photo or any more accurate information reguarding this matter do please post it here. Thanks a lot!"

2nd reply moved to this thread

"Thankyou all for your input,.....As far as I am aware there were three sizes of the embroidered Hitler standard that accompanied Hitler when he traveled, a large version that was hoisted in it's own fixed frame, the smaller version with it's own rig as mentioned before, and finaly a smaller fender mounted version. It would seem then that no one knows for sure exactly where any of these items are, so I would therefore respectfully ask all of you, that if you encounter any one of them, to photgraph and post pictures and information about them on this forum so we may have more information about these rare and ultimate symbols of nazi iconography."

" However for reasons unknown, it still remains in storage and not on public display?......"

Doug,,its almost done,,a small bit of embroidery left to do on it, some ageing,, and it will be finished and ready for display with the pole........

I’m sorry but is this the Hitler standard that is in discussion? If so I was under the impression that there were hundreds if not thousands of these produced! Each naval vessel had one in its store of flags just in case AH boarded, just for example!
Confused in Mississippi
John

here's both, 1st and 2nd.

they are both nice,,,but,,I'd rather find this baby!

Veeery cool schellenbaum!

quote:

Originally posted by Gaspare:
they are both nice,,,but,,I'd rather find this baby!

Gaspare,
That Schellenbaum was displayed at an OVMS show at the old Norwood location back in the early 70's - by a German dealer if I remember correctly. A very impressive item!

THE LAH DE FLAG WAS FOUND BY GEORGE PETERSEN IN THE RUSSIAN MUSEUM STORE ROOMS. THIS IS DIFFERENT THAT THE HAND EMBROIDERED HITLER STANDARTE THAT RON WEINAND WAS REFERRING TO. I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY HAND EMBROIDERED VERSIONS WERE MADE BUT HOPE'S WAS THE ONLY ONE I KNOW OF. THERE WERE MANY PRINTED VERIONS OF THE HITLER STANDARTE THAT WERE STORED AT VARIOUS LOCATIONS HE WOULD VISIT. I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN A NUMBER OF THOSE OVER THE YEARS.

All the Fuhrer Funeral Wreath sashes are hand embroidered.Both ends.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Coleman:
THE LAH DE FLAG WAS FOUND BY GEORGE PETERSEN IN THE RUSSIAN MUSEUM STORE ROOMS. THIS IS DIFFERENT THAT THE HAND EMBROIDERED HITLER STANDARTE THAT RON WEINAND WAS REFERRING TO. I DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY HAND EMBROIDERED VERSIONS WERE MADE BUT HOPE'S WAS THE ONLY ONE I KNOW OF. THERE WERE MANY PRINTED VERIONS OF THE HITLER STANDARTE THAT WERE STORED AT VARIOUS LOCATIONS HE WOULD VISIT. I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN A NUMBER OF THOSE OVER THE YEARS.

I lifted these pictures when this was listed for sale on eBay several years ago - before the nasty swastika was verboten. I don't know if it is good or not, but thought it was pretty impressive. This is the Hitler Standarte; not the DE.

second and last picture

Does anyone have an idea on current market price of a 100x100 printed style Fuhrer Standard?