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#90413 07/13/2007 10:13 PM
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I acquired this (Dress?) bayonet yesterday and it is,unusual,at least to me:

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#90414 07/13/2007 10:14 PM
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The bayonet and scabbard are totally unmarked in any way: The blade is plated but has been scratched perhaps in a sharpening attempt.

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#90415 07/13/2007 10:18 PM
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The ones I am familiar with have plated hilts and this one is not magnetic and dull. The frog is marked but the maker is undecipherable. The frog appears to be dated 1911? Any help would be appreciated.

2007_0712bayonet0083_edited.JPG (75.8 KB, 434 downloads)
#90416 07/13/2007 10:22 PM
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Jim,

Interesting piece, looks like late war vintage based on the lack of pommel plating & the wooden grip plates formed to resemble stag. I suspect the frog may have been added later. Looks like a Klaas product to me, at least from the pics. How's the blade?


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#90417 07/13/2007 10:27 PM
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Thanks Billy:
I went back and added the blade condition which is so so. The grips are made of wood to resemble stag. I'm a little surprised at "late war" attribution. I would have thought at that point all efforts would have been going into actual service bayonets. However it does have the narrow slot and won't go on a rifle
Jim

#90418 07/13/2007 10:34 PM
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Hi Jim,

All pieces that I have seen exhibiting the poor/missing plating on the pommel along with wood/fake stag grips were late war vintage. I would agree with you that as the war progressed that a majority of pieces produced were likely of a combat variety but there were existing stocks still to be sold & I believe Solingen companies always had the ability to put something together provided the buyer had the gelt. I think it's a nice piece & tells a story.


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#90419 07/14/2007 01:34 AM
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Jim, Billy G. is a very experienced collector and I very much respect his overall knowledge of dress bayonets. However, I am not sure that we are on the same wavelength as to what “late war” is or not. I know that a very popular book incorporates 1933 - 1945 into its title (I have the book). But I’m afraid that the book has some notable areas where it is wrong.

First, forget 1945. If Solingen military production for the Wehrmacht was shut down at the very beginning of January 1945. Were they making dress bayonets in 1945? I don’t think so. They were trying to figure out how to keep the Allies from invading Germany itself, not making uniform accessories.

If in 1942 Himmler proclaimed that SS honor swords would no longer be made because of material shortages (this includes nickel). Did they make an exception for ordinary soldiers when none was made for the SS? We also see RZM items discontinued. So they made exceptions for ordinary soldiers for off duty dress accouterments and tossed NSDAP requests out the window? What are the odds of that happening??

Looking at the hilt from the coloration to me it looks more like oxidized aluminum instead of zinc. Which can be a little difficult to place. Because there is a problem fixing a date or dates between makers because not everybody did the same thing at the same time. Still, if we put the time roughly at pre 1940 for aluminum I think we might not be too far off.

As mentioned the Germans were chronically short of almost everything at one time or another. And the use of a stag substitute I think is just another variable. With basic economics also being a factor. I don’t assign any particular time value to wood, although it has bearing in military production.

And the frog appears to be (government property) military issue and is probably dated 1941 having steel (?) rivets.

Actual combat operations began in 1939. So if your bayonet was labeled early wartime I would think that is probably fairly close to when it was made. I am open to other interpretations. But from my point of view that is what I think is a more realistic appraisal of the time period when it might have been made.

That said, I think that it would be an interesting example to add to a collection. Regards, FP

#90420 07/14/2007 01:57 AM
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Fred,

You give me too much credit but it is much appreciated. I spoke solely from my experience with regard to finding similar type features on a variety of dress bayonets, particularly the fire & police pieces. With respect to the particular history of bayonets' manufacture, I am admittedly ignorant save for what I have read in the vaious accepted references for dress bayonets.

I have several pieces that show hilts similar to Jim's piece, I would think just by virtue of their overall weight that they would have been manufactured about as late as dress pieces were produced.

I also have a pair of pieces with the simulated stag grip plates which I attributed to later war based solely on the cost & or availability of real stag.

What would you think is the latest this piece could have been produced, 1942?


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#90421 07/14/2007 02:24 AM
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Billy, For series (ie: continuous factory) production: If the hilt is zinc then I think that early (but not January) in 1942 would not be a bad estimate. 1942 also saw changes in military production which can be roughly dated via serial numbers. With civilian (dress) production it’s tougher to date. But from the edicts issued it’s clear that resources were being conserved for military production. The occasional special order might be placed. But mass produced items were a thing of the past. I also don’t place any really special attribute to stag other than it was a higher cost option. Substitute (ersatz) materials are really a topic by themselves. But I think it’s fair to say from dagger grips to bayonets - when they ran out of one material they found a substitute. Best Regards, FP

#90422 07/14/2007 02:35 AM
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Billy G. and Fred:
In re. Jim M.'s dress bayonet, I have this one in my collection...
I believe, many moons ago both Fred and I after a couple of glasses of fine wine, discussed my dress piece just like Jim M.'s.
I believe we decided that this was a very low zinc and lead alloy that would not take a magnet and that the wooden grip, carved to look like stag was part of the plan to sell low priced dress bayonets to those that could not afford a typical dress blade.
I'd have to dig into my drawers to find the piece...haven't looked at in years.
Regards to You Guys,
Jack

#90423 07/14/2007 02:51 AM
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Ok Guys: I can verify the the rivets are steel. But FAR more importantly; Where was I when this was being discussed over glasses of wine! Roll Eyes Could one or more of you gurus put a value on this piece?
I'll get to the other bayonet that walked in with this one tomorrow. Every time I hear that thre's nothing more to be gotten out of the woodwork I LMAO. Cool
Jim

#90424 07/14/2007 03:57 PM
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Hi Jim,
These are interesting examples but seem to be not well known among collectors and consequently kind of a "hard sell". Assuming it is a long blade model, I would value it at $85 - $100 with sharpened blade and the grip wear showing in the pic. If it is a short blade, it would be another matter entirely. I've never seen a short blade model.
I've also never seen one of these with a manufacturer's trademark - they have all been totally unmarked, which leads me to believe they were all made by the same company. But who?? Billy, I am curious why you think this might be Klaas manufacture. I'm not disagreeing with you, just wanting to learn more.
Jim, here is mine for comparison.

Ersatz_Stag_Obverse_(Medium).JPG (64.84 KB, 371 downloads)

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#90425 07/14/2007 03:58 PM
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Reverse

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#90426 07/14/2007 06:50 PM
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Hi Denny,

From the angles Jim shows the pommel, it appeared to me to have a profile I associate with Klaas, a shorter "beak" on the bird head pommel. If Jim could post a shot like yours, I would be able to see if I'm out on a limb or not Smile

Hi Jack,

Glad to see you chiming in & looking forward to see what you've got.


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#90427 07/14/2007 07:31 PM
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Hi Billy,
Do you think mine looks like a Klass? I still think these were all made by one company.
FP, what are your thoughts?


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#90428 07/14/2007 07:41 PM
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Hi Denny,

Yours is almost definitely not Klaas, more like an Eickhorn.


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#90429 07/14/2007 08:32 PM
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Here's some pommel closeups as requested:

2007_0714morebayos0002_edited.JPG (43.34 KB, 330 downloads)
#90430 07/14/2007 08:34 PM
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Other side. BTW: I'm fairly convinced after some study in bright light that the pommel and crossguards is some form of Zinc alloy:

2007_0714morebayos0002_edited.JPG (43.34 KB, 321 downloads)
#90431 07/14/2007 08:35 PM
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Here's the othr side. The *(&(^ software won't let you delete a picture for another:

2007_0714morebayos0003_edited.JPG (62.25 KB, 323 downloads)
#90432 07/14/2007 09:36 PM
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OK boys... here is mine just to add to the mix. The blade is polished and unplated with no markings.

George

KS98_wood_grip.JPG (38.67 KB, 313 downloads)

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#90433 07/14/2007 09:41 PM
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The hilt is unplated zink(ish) potmetal. The blade has a distinctive pebbled leather washer. The carved wooden grips have plated steel rivets. And, the press button has a squared top instead of being rounded if that helps.

George

KS98_wood_hilt.JPG (42.46 KB, 304 downloads)

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#90434 07/14/2007 11:20 PM
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Jim, Looking at your second set of pictures it now looks like zinc. Lighting is a pain. Sometimes at shows I had to go outside to try and get the true color of something. With digital imaging it’s no better (IMO) than some types of artificial lighting. The camera throws the color values off. George’s bayonet looks like it might be made of Kriegsmetall. A zinc-lead alloy it generally has a darker tinge than straight zinc. That is what I remember of Jack’s bayonet - although it could have been the wine assisting me in forming an opinion Wink. As for a maker (or makers) they could come from a single source. But I would not really be comfortable making a judgment without doing some side by side comparisons. Regards To All, FP

#90435 07/14/2007 11:25 PM
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Ok Fred:
I leave it to you to arrange for the 1st Annual Bayonet side-by-side comparison and wine tasting party!! Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
Jim

#90436 07/14/2007 11:59 PM
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Heres a shortie with the same characteristics and polished fittings. Interesting that they all appear to have the same rivets and config and all shown in this thread could definately all be from the same manufacturer. This one is also unmarked.


#90437 07/15/2007 02:41 AM
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Thanks Degens. That's the first shortie I know of.
I agree Jim; Fred is in charge of the wine tasting party.


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#90438 07/15/2007 09:34 AM
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Something else that is worth noting is that all these simulated examples appear to have this very high recurved quillion. I have posted it next to a Klaas and Eickhorn original stag for comparison. Its a bit hard to tell if all the other ones posted are to this extent, Dennies certainly is Smile.


#90439 07/16/2007 12:26 AM
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I have one that has a nickle/chrome plateing on but is very thin and coming off. the grips are wood and it has a late Eickhorn TM. Do we think that some were never plated?????????




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#90440 07/16/2007 12:56 AM
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Terry,

There is no hint of plating on mine, even in the recesses. Also, the blade is simply polished steel with no plating either. I think most were not plated, just polished bright. The plating on the rivets is still intact so I would say it was never plated.

George


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#90441 07/16/2007 01:11 AM
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I agree with George. Mine exhibits the same characteristics.
jim

#90442 07/16/2007 02:10 PM
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and mine....


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#90443 07/16/2007 09:09 PM
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End of production, or near end of production, dress daggers omitted nickel plated blades. Daggers had Kriegsmetall hilt fittings. Anything they could do to try and conserve increasingly scarce metal alloys was done to keep non Wehrmacht (military) production going. By 1942 some makers of bayonets for the Wehrmacht, that had used Bakelite plastic grips previously, had to revert to wood grips to enable them to continue to make bayonets. Is there a connection? That is where I would be looking myself. FP

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I’m not a specialist collector of dress bayonets. And this thread has had me wondering on how to classify these seemingly late production bayonets. 98K Mauser rifle collectors have a special category of late production rifles which are known as the Kriegsmodell. Said rifles incorporating certain manufacturing modifications.

Could these very interesting bayonets possibly be considered the ‘Kriegsmodell’ version of dress bayonets? FP

#90445 07/17/2007 10:19 PM
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I was thing more along the lines of "Last Ditch" Fred! Big Grin Wink
Jim

#90446 07/18/2007 02:20 AM
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Jim, I must have missed a meeting. I thought that the “Last Ditch” models were the ones with wooden scabbards. Cool Wink FP

#90447 07/18/2007 03:27 AM
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There is one model that has eluded me for years.
Does anyone have a picture of a "First Ditch" bayonet? Wink


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#90448 07/18/2007 03:44 AM
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Denny

Here is a first ditch. You should see the scabbard.

PICT2267.JPG (45.13 KB, 250 downloads)

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#90449 07/18/2007 04:00 AM
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Geez;
Is that a genuine hand chipped blade. Shouldn't it be Native American attributed with a reveresed swastika? The main question here is;Is it period or was it made from post-war rejected buffalo chips. I think I know someone who would buy it!!! Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
Jim

#90450 07/18/2007 04:18 PM
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This is the first time that I have seen what I’m assuming is the standard issue “First Ditch” bayonet. It must be very rare.

Strangely enough I have just been contacted by someone, who sent me a picture, and is offering to sell me a presentation example. He says that a little known historical fact is that a very limited number of these bayonets were given to the brave volunteers defending his personal residence by HSSPF Heinrich Himmler. I don’t have much experience in this area. Should I go for it??

(Apologies to Terry, just taking it a step further Wink) FP

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#90451 07/18/2007 04:31 PM
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Well Fred:
Those runes look a little cheeky to me. I'm also concerned about the lack of a blue background. However I'm pretty sure this can be corrected! Cool Wink
Jim

#90452 07/18/2007 08:23 PM
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There are several makers of these bayonets or at least there are several TM's. Eickhorn, Krebs, WKC and others. I have a mint Krebs one with the tag.
There are also bayonets like this that have copper Police Officer sword emblems pinned to standard bakelite grips. Some are short -some are long -some have a sawtooth blade-most are unmarked but I have seen a couple of WKC's. Angolia identifies them as Fire Police. I don't know what they are but I do know they have been around since the late 50's and are seldom seen. Some don't think they are period but I tend to think they are because they are so seldom seen and because these other unplated ones also exist.


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#90453 07/19/2007 01:47 AM
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Thanks Terry. You've answered one of the age-old questions of TR blade collecting.
Here is the reverse side with the model designation.

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#90454 07/19/2007 03:21 AM
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Houston,
The WKC examples are fakes. It surprises me that you weren't sitting on the docks in 1959 to see the creates floating in. WKC never made these examples and I mean never. Other trademarks (from my many years of experience)are good.

I Love This Stuff
Von Ryan

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#90455 07/19/2007 04:35 PM
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Seeing that some long held beliefs have been introduced as fuel for the discussion - I have a question to the Cognoscenti. I think I have a reasonably good handle on government issued blades. My knowledge of dress items is not as solid. I was introduced into dress bayonet collecting with the belief that the short dress bayonets were for NCO’s. Can anyone point me to a period source where that information is confirmed? FP

#90456 07/19/2007 04:46 PM
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Interesting that you would have such a strong opinion on that Wayne. What proof do you have of that? I have never seen a properly stamped Third Reich era( 33-45) WKC TM'ed fake of any kind.


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#90457 07/19/2007 04:52 PM
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FP-There are a couple of period edged weapon catalogs that document this-However I don't believe the rule was enforced. IMO Many continued to wear the long version they had purchased as a an EM after being promoted to NCO, mainly because of the cost involved.


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#90458 07/19/2007 06:42 PM
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Houston, I’m not disputing what you say. In the limited selection of catalogs that I have I did not see any differentiation by rank. Perhaps if someone has a catalog where that information is included they could post it? Regards, FP

#90459 07/19/2007 08:30 PM
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Look in Tom Johnson's Volume 8--page 271-A page from a Max Weyersberg catalog confirms this--also for Firewehr.


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#90460 07/19/2007 08:54 PM
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Houston, thanks for the information. But that’s where it gets a little confusing for me. In Vol. II Tom Johnson has a translation of “Solingen made Me”. It says that the military and police (junior grade) NCO’s and EM had a choice of length - subject to local regulations. Can they both be correct? FP

#90461 07/19/2007 09:59 PM
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I had this piece in my old files which seems to show the same grip plates & pommel finish as the others, I can't speak to the authenticity of the grip emblem. Sorry, I had trouble resizing it.

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#90462 07/19/2007 10:01 PM
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Houston,

Regarding fake WKC logos, I pulled this link from an old GD thread. I don't know if they're "stamped" but they appear so. I can't post the pics because their size is too large.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/172097573/...310058492#3310058492


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#90463 07/19/2007 10:22 PM
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Billy:
If you'll email me the pics. I'll re-size and post them.
Jim

#90464 07/19/2007 11:39 PM
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Jim,

Thanks, you've got mail Smile


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#90465 07/19/2007 11:48 PM
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Billy-The TM there is the approx 1930 type without the WKC underneath. I am talking about the later type which began about in 1933-34. Visor with slits and WKC underneath--top of helmet towards the blade tip--That is the Third Reich type and I have not seen any fakes that I can recall.


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#90466 07/19/2007 11:49 PM
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Ok guys, now the jokes on ME!!! I did believe that discussion above the WKC fake deal was meant to be a humorous thread, wasn't it? Houston, I was just kidding you about the WKC trademark thing. Ya just gotta have a sense of humor sometimes. Apparently I lost the idea of the thread somewhere earlier.

Wayne

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#90467 07/19/2007 11:52 PM
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FP-There may have been conflicting regulations or changes but, at any rate, I don't think much attention was paid to those regulations. The Police had a wide variety of different lengths to choose from for their private purchase pieces.


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#90468 07/19/2007 11:54 PM
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Good "Poker face " Wayne. I had no idea. I ain't playin' with you at the table. Big Grin Here are some of the different Police blade lengths.

P62500721_Bayo_wall.jpg (45.13 KB, 97 downloads)

MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#90469 07/20/2007 12:13 AM
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Thanks Houston,

I checked my files & don't have any fakes showing the WKC '33-'34 logo.


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#90470 07/20/2007 12:15 AM
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A
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Hey Houston:
Does the display above constitute an "ALL IN"? If it holds up does this mean Wayne has to walk around the MAX in a barrel this year!! Roll Eyes Big Grin Big Grin
Jim

#90471 07/20/2007 04:18 PM
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Houston, My compliments on an outstanding display!! Smile As for the long and short bayonets in conjunction with rank (junior NCO’s/EM), I also took a look at George Wheeler’s book to see what he had to say about the subject. And some more catalogs. George can correct me if I missed something. But my sense of everything taken together is that the end of the day it’s just as you say. Not much attention was paid to bayonet length. A sort of Laissez Faire attitude which makes sense because there were not restrictions as regards grip type, blade decoration, pommel decoration etc. With the determining factor seeming to be the size of the purchaser's wallet. When it comes to senior grade NCO’s - however. Both regulations and some catalogs clearly indicate that the type of sidearm was not to be deviated from. Regards, FP

#90472 07/20/2007 07:50 PM
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First of all I must make this next statement perfectly clear: ANYTHING I have put into this thread concerning WKC was for fun. Do not, I repeat not, take me seriously in THIS thread.

I would only consider a barrel if it was "cleaned" of all patina and pre-45 German manufacture.....

I Love This Stuff
Von Ryan

DD4_sm.jpg (80.27 KB, 68 downloads)
Casino
#90473 07/20/2007 07:52 PM
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By the way Houston, that is a great collection.

Wayne

#90474 07/21/2007 12:00 AM
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Thanks Wayne


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