UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum Strange dress bayonet

I acquired this (Dress?) bayonet yesterday and it is,unusual,at least to me:

The bayonet and scabbard are totally unmarked in any way: The blade is plated but has been scratched perhaps in a sharpening attempt.

The ones I am familiar with have plated hilts and this one is not magnetic and dull. The frog is marked but the maker is undecipherable. The frog appears to be dated 1911? Any help would be appreciated.

Jim,

Interesting piece, looks like late war vintage based on the lack of pommel plating & the wooden grip plates formed to resemble stag. I suspect the frog may have been added later. Looks like a Klaas product to me, at least from the pics. How's the blade?

Thanks Billy:
I went back and added the blade condition which is so so. The grips are made of wood to resemble stag. I'm a little surprised at "late war" attribution. I would have thought at that point all efforts would have been going into actual service bayonets. However it does have the narrow slot and won't go on a rifle
Jim

Hi Jim,

All pieces that I have seen exhibiting the poor/missing plating on the pommel along with wood/fake stag grips were late war vintage. I would agree with you that as the war progressed that a majority of pieces produced were likely of a combat variety but there were existing stocks still to be sold & I believe Solingen companies always had the ability to put something together provided the buyer had the gelt. I think it's a nice piece & tells a story.

Jim, Billy G. is a very experienced collector and I very much respect his overall knowledge of dress bayonets. However, I am not sure that we are on the same wavelength as to what “late war” is or not. I know that a very popular book incorporates 1933 - 1945 into its title (I have the book). But I’m afraid that the book has some notable areas where it is wrong.

First, forget 1945. If Solingen military production for the Wehrmacht was shut down at the very beginning of January 1945. Were they making dress bayonets in 1945? I don’t think so. They were trying to figure out how to keep the Allies from invading Germany itself, not making uniform accessories.

If in 1942 Himmler proclaimed that SS honor swords would no longer be made because of material shortages (this includes nickel). Did they make an exception for ordinary soldiers when none was made for the SS? We also see RZM items discontinued. So they made exceptions for ordinary soldiers for off duty dress accouterments and tossed NSDAP requests out the window? What are the odds of that happening??

Looking at the hilt from the coloration to me it looks more like oxidized aluminum instead of zinc. Which can be a little difficult to place. Because there is a problem fixing a date or dates between makers because not everybody did the same thing at the same time. Still, if we put the time roughly at pre 1940 for aluminum I think we might not be too far off.

As mentioned the Germans were chronically short of almost everything at one time or another. And the use of a stag substitute I think is just another variable. With basic economics also being a factor. I don’t assign any particular time value to wood, although it has bearing in military production.

And the frog appears to be (government property) military issue and is probably dated 1941 having steel (?) rivets.

Actual combat operations began in 1939. So if your bayonet was labeled early wartime I would think that is probably fairly close to when it was made. I am open to other interpretations. But from my point of view that is what I think is a more realistic appraisal of the time period when it might have been made.

That said, I think that it would be an interesting example to add to a collection. Regards, FP

Fred,

You give me too much credit but it is much appreciated. I spoke solely from my experience with regard to finding similar type features on a variety of dress bayonets, particularly the fire & police pieces. With respect to the particular history of bayonets' manufacture, I am admittedly ignorant save for what I have read in the vaious accepted references for dress bayonets.

I have several pieces that show hilts similar to Jim's piece, I would think just by virtue of their overall weight that they would have been manufactured about as late as dress pieces were produced.

I also have a pair of pieces with the simulated stag grip plates which I attributed to later war based solely on the cost & or availability of real stag.

What would you think is the latest this piece could have been produced, 1942?

Billy, For series (ie: continuous factory) production: If the hilt is zinc then I think that early (but not January) in 1942 would not be a bad estimate. 1942 also saw changes in military production which can be roughly dated via serial numbers. With civilian (dress) production it’s tougher to date. But from the edicts issued it’s clear that resources were being conserved for military production. The occasional special order might be placed. But mass produced items were a thing of the past. I also don’t place any really special attribute to stag other than it was a higher cost option. Substitute (ersatz) materials are really a topic by themselves. But I think it’s fair to say from dagger grips to bayonets - when they ran out of one material they found a substitute. Best Regards, FP

Billy G. and Fred:
In re. Jim M.'s dress bayonet, I have this one in my collection...
I believe, many moons ago both Fred and I after a couple of glasses of fine wine, discussed my dress piece just like Jim M.'s.
I believe we decided that this was a very low zinc and lead alloy that would not take a magnet and that the wooden grip, carved to look like stag was part of the plan to sell low priced dress bayonets to those that could not afford a typical dress blade.
I'd have to dig into my drawers to find the piece...haven't looked at in years.
Regards to You Guys,
Jack

Ok Guys: I can verify the the rivets are steel. But FAR more importantly; Where was I when this was being discussed over glasses of wine! Could one or more of you gurus put a value on this piece?
I'll get to the other bayonet that walked in with this one tomorrow. Every time I hear that thre's nothing more to be gotten out of the woodwork I LMAO.
Jim

Hi Jim,
These are interesting examples but seem to be not well known among collectors and consequently kind of a "hard sell". Assuming it is a long blade model, I would value it at $85 - $100 with sharpened blade and the grip wear showing in the pic. If it is a short blade, it would be another matter entirely. I've never seen a short blade model.
I've also never seen one of these with a manufacturer's trademark - they have all been totally unmarked, which leads me to believe they were all made by the same company. But who?? Billy, I am curious why you think this might be Klaas manufacture. I'm not disagreeing with you, just wanting to learn more.
Jim, here is mine for comparison.

Reverse

Hi Denny,

From the angles Jim shows the pommel, it appeared to me to have a profile I associate with Klaas, a shorter "beak" on the bird head pommel. If Jim could post a shot like yours, I would be able to see if I'm out on a limb or not

Hi Jack,

Glad to see you chiming in & looking forward to see what you've got.

Hi Billy,
Do you think mine looks like a Klass? I still think these were all made by one company.
FP, what are your thoughts?

Hi Denny,

Yours is almost definitely not Klaas, more like an Eickhorn.

Here's some pommel closeups as requested:

Other side. BTW: I'm fairly convinced after some study in bright light that the pommel and crossguards is some form of Zinc alloy:

Here's the othr side. The *(&(^ software won't let you delete a picture for another:

OK boys... here is mine just to add to the mix. The blade is polished and unplated with no markings.

George

The hilt is unplated zink(ish) potmetal. The blade has a distinctive pebbled leather washer. The carved wooden grips have plated steel rivets. And, the press button has a squared top instead of being rounded if that helps.

George

Jim, Looking at your second set of pictures it now looks like zinc. Lighting is a pain. Sometimes at shows I had to go outside to try and get the true color of something. With digital imaging it’s no better (IMO) than some types of artificial lighting. The camera throws the color values off. George’s bayonet looks like it might be made of Kriegsmetall. A zinc-lead alloy it generally has a darker tinge than straight zinc. That is what I remember of Jack’s bayonet - although it could have been the wine assisting me in forming an opinion . As for a maker (or makers) they could come from a single source. But I would not really be comfortable making a judgment without doing some side by side comparisons. Regards To All, FP

Ok Fred:
I leave it to you to arrange for the 1st Annual Bayonet side-by-side comparison and wine tasting party!!
Jim

Heres a shortie with the same characteristics and polished fittings. Interesting that they all appear to have the same rivets and config and all shown in this thread could definately all be from the same manufacturer. This one is also unmarked.

Thanks Degens. That's the first shortie I know of.
I agree Jim; Fred is in charge of the wine tasting party.

Something else that is worth noting is that all these simulated examples appear to have this very high recurved quillion. I have posted it next to a Klaas and Eickhorn original stag for comparison. Its a bit hard to tell if all the other ones posted are to this extent, Dennies certainly is .

I have one that has a nickle/chrome plateing on but is very thin and coming off. the grips are wood and it has a late Eickhorn TM. Do we think that some were never plated?????????

Terry,

There is no hint of plating on mine, even in the recesses. Also, the blade is simply polished steel with no plating either. I think most were not plated, just polished bright. The plating on the rivets is still intact so I would say it was never plated.

George

I agree with George. Mine exhibits the same characteristics.
jim

and mine....

End of production, or near end of production, dress daggers omitted nickel plated blades. Daggers had Kriegsmetall hilt fittings. Anything they could do to try and conserve increasingly scarce metal alloys was done to keep non Wehrmacht (military) production going. By 1942 some makers of bayonets for the Wehrmacht, that had used Bakelite plastic grips previously, had to revert to wood grips to enable them to continue to make bayonets. Is there a connection? That is where I would be looking myself. FP

I’m not a specialist collector of dress bayonets. And this thread has had me wondering on how to classify these seemingly late production bayonets. 98K Mauser rifle collectors have a special category of late production rifles which are known as the Kriegsmodell. Said rifles incorporating certain manufacturing modifications.

Could these very interesting bayonets possibly be considered the ‘Kriegsmodell’ version of dress bayonets? FP

I was thing more along the lines of "Last Ditch" Fred!
Jim

Jim, I must have missed a meeting. I thought that the “Last Ditch” models were the ones with wooden scabbards. FP

There is one model that has eluded me for years.
Does anyone have a picture of a "First Ditch" bayonet?

Denny

Here is a first ditch. You should see the scabbard.

Geez;
Is that a genuine hand chipped blade. Shouldn't it be Native American attributed with a reveresed swastika? The main question here is;Is it period or was it made from post-war rejected buffalo chips. I think I know someone who would buy it!!!
Jim

This is the first time that I have seen what I’m assuming is the standard issue “First Ditch” bayonet. It must be very rare.

Strangely enough I have just been contacted by someone, who sent me a picture, and is offering to sell me a presentation example. He says that a little known historical fact is that a very limited number of these bayonets were given to the brave volunteers defending his personal residence by HSSPF Heinrich Himmler. I don’t have much experience in this area. Should I go for it??

(Apologies to Terry, just taking it a step further ) FP

Well Fred:
Those runes look a little cheeky to me. I'm also concerned about the lack of a blue background. However I'm pretty sure this can be corrected!
Jim

There are several makers of these bayonets or at least there are several TM's. Eickhorn, Krebs, WKC and others. I have a mint Krebs one with the tag.
There are also bayonets like this that have copper Police Officer sword emblems pinned to standard bakelite grips. Some are short -some are long -some have a sawtooth blade-most are unmarked but I have seen a couple of WKC's. Angolia identifies them as Fire Police. I don't know what they are but I do know they have been around since the late 50's and are seldom seen. Some don't think they are period but I tend to think they are because they are so seldom seen and because these other unplated ones also exist.