#8562
05/04/2009 03:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609
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OP
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609 |
Hello, I have always wondered about this Seilheimer Etched Bayonet with scabbard and frog in my collection was genuine or not. Here are some pictures which I hope will be enough for people to give me some feedback with their opinions. Thanks.
Jerry
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#8563
05/04/2009 03:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609
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OP
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609 |
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#8564
05/04/2009 03:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609
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OP
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609 |
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#8565
05/04/2009 03:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609
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OP
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609 |
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#8566
05/04/2009 03:48 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609
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OP
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609 |
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#8567
05/04/2009 03:49 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609
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OP
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609 |
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#8568
05/04/2009 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609
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OP
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609 |
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#8569
05/04/2009 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609
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OP
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609 |
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#8570
05/04/2009 09:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Jerry:
First of all, let me say that I like the etch. It is the one that appears on page 203 of Wayne's great book, German Etched Dress Bayonets.
Seilheimer seems to have purchased their etches from Holler and you can see the Holler bookends on this bayonet, as well as on pages 202-204.
It is the Luftwaffe etch, which Wayne calls scarce.
It has the third type of Seilheimer maker mark. Someone can correct me, but I believe that this mark is the earliest of the three known marks used by Seilheimer.
No red flags that I can see on the etch.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#8571
05/04/2009 10:42 PM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,344
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,344 |
nice bayonet,,,i just picked up one identical to this one about 2 weeks ago,and i posted the trade mark on this forum and also was told that this was the earlier of the 3 trade marks that seilheimer used,,,nice to see another one,,
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#8572
05/05/2009 01:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
This picture and the next was from the same catalog. Must have used all three at the same time??????????
TKissinger
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#8573
05/05/2009 01:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
TKissinger
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#8574
05/05/2009 01:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
Etched bayonets with this exact TM are VERY suspect as hundreds if not thousands were imported in the 60's. All were in 100% mint condition including the scabbard and very well executed.Some had the same etch patterns but were unmarked. Some even had stag grips.It was common knowledge among collectors of the time that these were fake or at the best-parts and they sold for $15 or less. They were everywhere. Since then many of the mint scabbards were switched to other period pieces.Some newer collectors don't know this history and now think these are period.To each his own but I would not have one in my collection.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#8575
05/05/2009 01:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Houston:
Thanks for the info... I never knew that.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#8576
05/05/2009 05:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
Houston is 100% correct. In the 60's the combination of this trademark and mint condition automatically meant "put it back on the seller's table". The late Jim Atwood was responsible for most of them.
p.s. Jerry, I'm not trashing your bayonet. I'm not smart enough to be able to tell if the etch is good or not. I do remember Atwood sending me one with stag grips and the same etch on approval for the amount of (you guessed it) $15.00 Let's wait for Wayne's opinion on the etch.
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#8577
05/05/2009 07:10 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609
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OP
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 609 |
Well, for a moment there I thought I might have a good one. Now, as I said in the beginning, I am not so sure. However, I really do appreciate the information given so far. Good or Bad, I think it is best to know. Let's see what else we can learn about this bayonet.
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#8578
05/05/2009 08:35 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52 |
Here is the same Paul Seilheimer bayonet that I believe is original. Just compare the borders of the etching: no missing parts... The makersmark points the other way...
Best greetings,
Herman
B1.jpg (96.19 KB, 307 downloads) 1
You never have enough HJ-knifes!
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#8579
05/05/2009 08:36 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52 |
2
B2.jpg (86.46 KB, 304 downloads) 2
You never have enough HJ-knifes!
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#8580
05/05/2009 08:37 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52 |
3
B3.jpg (96.26 KB, 304 downloads) 3
You never have enough HJ-knifes!
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#8581
05/05/2009 08:39 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52 |
4
B4.jpg (89.79 KB, 301 downloads) 4
You never have enough HJ-knifes!
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#8582
05/06/2009 01:18 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 99
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 99 |
Jim also had lots of mint Paul Seilheimer swords - all with the scabbards wrapped in twisted brown paper. We didn't look at things such as which way the MM pointed, we knew what they were, and Jim priced them accordingly.
Dan
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#8583
05/06/2009 01:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
My brother got stuck with one of these, sword thru triangle several years ago at the MAX show. He hasn't bought one since.
TKissinger
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#8584
05/06/2009 02:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 99
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 99 |
It is unfortunate that Jim Atwood is usually only remembered in a negative way, much of which promoted by the shady actions of those who sold some of his postwar assembled stuff down the road. He also unearthed tons of really good items.
Most collectors these days would be surprised to learn that Jim actually was, from when I knew him, honest, personable, quite knowledgeable, very trusting, and a friend.
Dan
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#8585
05/06/2009 04:13 AM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,344
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,344 |
what parts of the etching are "missing"?.. i see no difference other that the engraving is on one long style and on one carbine length,,,where do my eyes deceive me????...
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#8586
05/06/2009 08:47 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52 |
See indication in the picture.
Check Wayne's book on this, he explains it very well.
Best greetings,
Herman
2'.JPG (46.59 KB, 259 downloads) 2
You never have enough HJ-knifes!
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#8587
05/06/2009 01:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
Another thing I remember is all of the 60's ones I remember seeing were the long type
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#8588
05/06/2009 01:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072 |
Houston, when this was going on did you note any PS marked paper bags at that time?? Bret Van Sant
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#8589
05/06/2009 09:29 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 2
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,201 Likes: 2 |
I have been collection PS stuff for a while now (mostly swords) and one thing i have noted with most Seilheimer fakes is the direction of the MM. Like the fake Eick's its facing the wrong way - at least with the MM shown above. The PS in a circle and the dog with sword are a different kettle of fish.
GDC silver member #393
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#8590
05/12/2009 12:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
I don't remember the bags that much but hundreds if not thousands of different ones were available-some original?--some not
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#8591
05/12/2009 02:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072 |
Interesting information! Houston, you need to write all these things down and offer it to the collectors. I think these small tidbits are priceless. I have seen a few PS bags and given the size either for army, luft or long dress bayos? Never was really to sure.The printing on a few looked a bit odd like the printing on the fake Eick bags you see offered from time to time. Thanks for the reply!! Bret Van Sant
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#8592
05/16/2009 01:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,024 Likes: 31
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,024 Likes: 31 |
I do own several period bags from several manufacturers. I also own a SEILHEIMER army bag which, imo and due to my personal knowledge, is period without any doubt. If you have handled some of them you nearly immediately can tell which is the right thing or the wrong. Regards,
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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#8593
05/17/2009 01:22 AM
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,344
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,344 |
hi wotan,,,can you post some pics of the bags?..thanks,,,Robert
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#8594
05/17/2009 09:39 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,024 Likes: 31
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,024 Likes: 31 |
Hello Robert/militarymania, sorry, due to the fact that I want to avoid any information how an unquestionable original bag looks like (it has certain features the known fakes still miss) I did stop with showing pics from original bags. Please understand my attitude, regards,
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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#8595
05/17/2009 12:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072 |
Wotan, I think that is a wise move Bret Van Sant
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#8596
05/27/2009 03:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 812 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 812 Likes: 1 |
Gentlemen, Let's bring this discussion further. Do any of you definetely own one of the 60's examples of this etch. If you do please put some pictures of it here so that all of us can take a good look at it, THAT would be worthwhile looking at and discussing.
I Love This Stuff Von Ryan
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