UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Railroad Eagles

Test 2

test 3

test 4

test 5

test 6

And the last one, test 7

It's really nice to see all these types-real or fake as you just don't see that many around. No one has said how long these better fakes have been around but if they were made before the price went up ( they used to be about $250- and were for a long time )it is amazing that someone would go to such trouble--and not just make one kind-but several. Just finding that many different originals to make the fakes must have taken years. Very strange indeed

JR,

You be a funny man! What is the question?. Surely your not asking me to authenticate these with photo's?. Even you stated you cant do that.

My advice would be to send yourself a check for 50.00 a bird and do it yourself. I mean that's what this is all about right? $$$$$$ .

Kris

But,

Send me the ones your not sure of and 100.00 per bird and ill send you a COA.

Btw,

As a discount, keep #5 there I dont care for that one, and ill take #7 for myself even with the hole's in the wing.

Take care Bird Man

The ballpark cost Kris is being given of $30,000 is in line with the quotes a friend has received to make the mold for a new product he's bringing to market. Simple math tells you the breakeven point is around 100 at $300 per eagle. A reproducer would probably make far more then that.
The confounding point to me, and Houston alluded to it above, is these eagles are scarce. If several hundred had been made and sold I think you would see a lot more of them available.
BTW JR: You really should have bought the model train with the eagles on it I found last year!
Jim

And especially if reproduced in that number, we know that they would have been pushed in the collectors market so were are the numbers? We know that they can't be hidden away, I sure they wouldn't have been sold to the non-collecting community.

There is still another explanation as to what these eagles that have casting flaws really are. This is Tommy's info-and it makes a great deal of sense. I just can't accept that new repro two piece molds were made in a number of slightly different styles with different markings at what most say would be in the $30,000.00 range each. No, I don't think this is in the realm of even remote possibility.

Where is this bird, as I had trouble with the question, what do you mean hollowback? Specifically. And if they were made in the 30k range, they would obviously be much better.

K

When I say hollow back I mean that the back is recessed not flat. IMO-not knowing much about casting- this would require a two piece mold probably of steel to withstand the heat. To make the mold I would guess it would take a lot of setup/programing and machine time which would have to be expensive. How else could it be done? Also-you indicated the poor quality had to do more with materials and processing not the mold. A simple lack of ideal materials during wartime could explain that-and as I said Tommy has found out some additional info which indicates a very good possible explanation as to what these are. I hope he will post it soon. If not -I will.

Another related eagle that we have not discussed is the smaller one-probably not a Railroad Eagle-about half the size-hollow back with two large V's cast in the back. These eagles have been around as long as I can remember and are a bit scarcer than the large ones. The detail is not as good and the head is more like the one shown by Gaspare. Any opinion on these? I also wonder if all these eagles are in fact Railroad. They could be wall eagles too. If not-why not?

quote:

Originally posted by Houston Coates:
When I say hollow back I mean that the back is recessed not flat. IMO-not knowing much about casting- this would require a two piece mold probably of steel to withstand the heat. To make the mold I would guess it would take a lot of setup/programing and machine time which would have to be expensive. How else could it be done? Also-you indicated the poor quality had to do more with materials and processing not the mold. A simple lack of ideal materials during wartime could explain that-and as I said Tommy has found out some additional info which indicates a very good possible explanation as to what these are. I hope he will post it soon. If not -I will.

Houston,

When I stated reference to poor quality as an indicator of reproduction and materials used in construction as a possible reason for such, I was using it as only one of the facets that could contribute to identifying a reproduction, and was baseing the material aspect on opinion based on what I have seen, and limited knowledge on metalwork.

But the lack of quality in most cases is also found in conjunction with other inconsistancies such as mounting configuration, malformed casts and the list goes on. And to try and contribute it to late war does not fly with me personally.

Were talking about a formula molded cast, the quality would remain, if anything there would be a lack of finishing, not a loss of quality. Example would be the cone shaped devices to the rear of the bird, which were never used to mount the bird. But their quality is the same.

And to give credit where it is due, JR has done a fine job on his reference, and I am certain he has opinion on this as well. I just wish he would express it rather than throwing me pop quiz's.

Give me a few with this hollowback issue.

Best,

Kris

I've noticed that on Aaron's eagle as well as Kris' the insciption below lok is BEL were as on mine (I'm pretty sure it's a good one,Don't know for sure now) it is BERL. could this be a red flag on fake eagles?

2

Houston,

Ok, I fed myself and feel better now. I think you confused what I meant, or I confused what I meant. Either way. I would imagine original bird's were made from 2 piece mold's, they had to be, as they are definitely cast and they have hollow backs. I think cheap hollow backs can be made, but they can be spotted and are being spotted for various reasons. The bulk of the fake's however look like the one thats posted on the Jerry Springer show in the community forum.

Post what you have, and we can go from there.

Reds,

I dont know, post the front and rear of the bird as best you can, and we can look at it.

Best,

Kris

Wehog Eagle

I spent some time at a mold casting company here in Tulsa.I showed engineering in the tool&die shop a Wehog eagle,ask them how it was made.

They said it was made with a two piece steel mold.The cavity (front side of the eagle) was fill with the Gal Mg Si.They then place the back side on and squeeze together under pressure.

Today the cost of making one mold would be about $25000 and you could kick out about 40 eagles a day.But out of that 40 you would end up with about 35, OC has rejected 5 of them ( poor quantity )

Maybe the Wehog we see today are rejects from the past but still original ?

Hollow-Back being concaved

Anyone that is interested w/Rail Eagle needs to get J.R. Reference Book.

With the Wehog molds (backside)the toolers did not spend time with details,The backside was never seen.

25k for tooling,,o.k. but there are cheaper ways to reproduce and the piece comes out good also..I've seen a centrifugal rubber mold for wax that made flag pole tops, after a casting of it the piece looked great, 3D and needed little hand finishing, very simple and inexpensive..

Gaspare-You are saying you can pour molten aluminum alloy into a rubber mold???????????.
I think what Tommy said about the "reject" thing is a very good possibility. this would answer many of the questions about these. Tommy did not mention that at the foundry they said that some of the production would be rejected for poor quality for various reasons. They also said the mold must be cleaned and prepared properly each time or slag would stick in it damaging the next one-this would account for the rough backs and the partial cone casting on some of these so called fakes. Consider--

This would answer the question about why there are so few around. Most rejects were probably melted up but some may have been taken home by workers.

It would also explain the rough backs-partial cone castings,bubbles, etc. and the lack of proper finishing. Rejects would not be finished.

It would also explain the number of different ones-rejects would occur in all the different places they were made.

This seems much more likely to me than multiple expensive molds. So -is there any real reason this could not be the case?

No sir. Wax goes into the rubber mold. The wax then gets cast as in lost wax process. You make a bunch of wax models. Inspect them,,anything you don't like can be smoothed out OR detail added, then cast in what ever metal you desire...

Pole tops..

Yes Gaspare you could repop these eagles inexpensive by useing a vacuum blow mold.The cost on one vacuum mold would be about $6-7000.

But we are back to the Wehog eagle that everyone is talking about.The Wehog we are seeing today were made with a two piece metal mold.

The front of a Wehog has detail,but not as nice as others.And the toolers spent some time with a whetstone hand finishing the molds.

Well,

A vacuum blow sounds like a pleasent enough process, but, show the front and rear of the entire eagle. I know there are other reasons I did not take a shine to these. What is the mounting configuration? There would have to be one, and I cannot remember one Wehog that was set up for it.

Best,

Kris

Kris, Please take time and look in J.R. reference book on a Wehog repop.You should get a good ideal what a Wehog looks like.



Best, Tommy

Tommy,

Then there is really nothing to talk about, I dont know where they came from, but none have any mounting hardware, they are all cast with it missing. But I dont have the book in front of me.

A 2 part mold does not mean 30k. And a lot of wehogs out there.

Best,

Kris

Sorry Kris I was thinking you had J.R. reference.

But the ? is why has the Wehog been label fake ?

Tom,

Its a good question, and I honestly dont know. Maybe JR will dig one up or one may pop up somewhere. Whoever made them did ok, but they vary in their own make. I dont understand them personally. I think I only took interest with them about 5 years ago and handled many of them. I would like to see an answer as well on these Wehogs. My question is? can you certify originality based on the process of manufacture?. If some guy in the 60's decided to knock off Wehogs in his garage, he would have needed a bird, and that bird or bird's had attaching studs of some form as there are remnents of them. But then there are different sizes?. I can only speculate that maybe someone banged these out off one bird, I must admit the pics you posted are better quality than some of the one's I have seen.

As far as the processes discussed, the 2 piece mold is key I think, I called today to find out what this guy thought and have yet to hear back. I dont think anyone is going to have any success in a perfect reproduction without serious out of pocket costs and work. But they do make nice display and I like having them around.

Best,

Kris

TE, that large rubber centrifugal mold cost well under $1000 to make.....the detail they have on large or small pieces can be excellent...

This was for reproducing ghetto coins..They had excellent detail and when artificially aged / worn they fooled many for years..From what I had heard these were first done in Poland around 1992...
but lets get back to the eagles,,,,


JR, how were these eagles originally made?

*

Here's a 16" example that was recently sold by Collectors Militaria:

Obverse: Any opinions or comments?

I've read w/interest about the WEHOGs and 16"er above. I have one of each if someone would like to buy them. $200/inch, but SUPER rare. The original manufacturers of these items when contacted, replied that they don't remember, but could have made them, AND in fact they did make 'em! Absolutely Sterling provenance. My wife also told me they were good although I will admit to not inspecting them after that. You'll be getting something that AJAX won't take off and I'm sure you'll love 'em (if you have those maso type feelings).

I make no guarantee nor will I refund your money on these items in 5 mins, let alone a year. They are what they are.........and if you buy 'em, you might as well adopt that attitude.......

Denny

Denny, I would like to buy one of those eagles but my wife thinks she sold it before to your wife but she dosen't remember as she sells sooo many of them. Maybe if I can get her permission, I can move forward, but she sleeps in the other end of the house and stays completely separate from me. I only see her now and then...no set schedule. She has her own money and just hangs out here...I'm SURE you understand. You know the type.


Mark

Dang I am generally closer with my girlfriends!! Damn if you can do that to your wifes, I guess I am doing something wrong

Any opinions on the one that was sold on Relics of the Reich Paul Jarvis site?

Are this then just Railway eagles or where thes same eagles also used for buildings? Would be nice to see some period pictures from the Railway. And which "Loks" got them in which time frame.

kinda looks the same as my small repro...

I have a Wahog almost identical to T E's, only my raised code is GAL-MC, being one letter different. It is 28" across, and shows considerable detail on the back, though nothing like the front.
It is a hair over 28" tip to tip, and has tapped holes in the wing lugs.
This one shows a ton of quality for a 'reproduction' piece, and in all reality appears to be a period item.