UBB.threads Forums General Interest Restoration, Conservation, and Maintenance Forum Water Protection Scabbard

Hey Vern! Do you think you could do anything toward fixing the scabbard on this dagger? I don't have the tools I need to get into something this tight. Take a look and let me know what you think. 3FL















Thanks Much! 3FL

I have a steel mandril that will go all the way to the end Should be able to do something with it.

Hey Louie: I'm sure you are aware that this is a postwar scabbard.

Hi Manfred,

Yes, It is a '57 scabbard. Only one I could find since the dag did not have one when I got it. It'll do until something better comes along! I am looking for a TR period scabbard, by the way. But with Navals being so expensive, I can't even afford to buy a rat to steal the scab. Know what I mean! 3FL

I'm curious , is that pommel plated or solid brass. For some reason it looks different from the x guard. My 2 cents. T

Hey Tiep,

It appears to be solid Brass, but it is a little shinier than the crossguard. Lots of rubbing?

There is more gilding left in the recesses of the pommel than the crossguard also. Maybe that is what you are seeing along with the camera flash.

Manfred Vogel, I just wanted you to clarify something! I think I know what you are basing your determination that this scabbard is Post War on. And that has been my belief also. BUT, I have just garnered a little tidbit of information that I may want to pass on to all. Please tell me what you were seeing that told you the scabbard was Post War. Anyone else please feel free to chime in also. I think you will find this very interesting. 3FL

I also thought it was postwar. The bottom ball is normally a seperate solid piece soldered in when the shells are assembled. Are the scabbard bands embossed or seperate?

Could it be the scabbard bands look too thin, maybe not a separate piece of the scabbard, the throat looks possibly odd too. Tiep

Well, I was thinking that probably what Manfred had noticed was the fact that the scabbard bands were embossed. Which is what would have been the first Red flag for me if I was looking at it. The Tidbit of information I picked up is that this (embossed bands) is NOT a stone rule for Post war Navals. I bought that scabbard off E-bay adertised as a Pre-1945 Scabbard and paid a good price for it. I asked for a refund from the seller, based on it being Post War. They refused to do the refund, The scabbard was also damaged in the mail because the seller had shipped it from Germany in an Envelope. Anyway, I approached Tom Johnson due to the fact that paypal wanted documentation that the scabbard was a repro / Post war and he informed me that he no longoer holds the opinion that Scabbard bands on pre '45 Scabbards were always applied. So I guess there goes another red flag we can use on these. 3FL

I just picked up a complete Horster "Reissue" set on a trade, and that is a current production Horster scabbard. Embossed bands and nicely detailed hanger rings

First I'd like to say how much I appreciated learning the scabbard "red flags," thank you! I notice Louie that your dagger appears to have a gold coloured eagle affixed to the handle and a police eagle engraved on the blade ricasso, am I correct? I'm interested in this because they are contrary to mine (see below) and I'm curious to know what other differences exist? Again, thank you for sharing.

Here are the two I have, both Eickhorns. Neither has the badge on the blade.

Excellent Vern, thank you. I need to take some better pictures of mine however, have you seen any others with the police crest engraved on them? One other thing, have you used anything on the handles to give them that "wet-leather" look?

Man, I love those reef knot portopees! I notice that one of yours has the gold Eagle also Vern. I have seen them both ways. Yes, Mine has the Police Eagle on the Ricasso, I have seen this in a book, on one other one "in Hand" And this one. I will take some better pics of the blade and post them.

I use Ren-Wax on my wood and leather grips, but I think the "wet leather" look is more from the camera flash. Most of the WPP daggers with the eagle are gilt, or have gilt in the eagle recesses. I have seen a few with the silver eagle but I think the concern is that it's been replaced with an eagle from a Police Bayonet. I've also seen them with the Police crest. They have been reproed both ways

Louie,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the etched eagle on your blade ricasso is improper, IMHO. I saw very convincing fakes of this dagger in Germany some 15 years ago with Polizei eagles etched on the ricasso in this manner.

A close up will tell the tale but this eagle is neither the 1934 Polizei eagle or the 1936 Polizei eagle. The etching should duplicate one or the other but this one seems to be more of a WAG at what a police eagle should look like. The 1934 eagle has pointed wings and no wreath around the swastika. The 1936 eagle looks exactly like the emblem on the grip. It appears the etched eagle on your blade looks nothing like either one.

George

Hi George, I appreciate the input. I KNOW that the Blade is real, Original, Pre-45, whatever. If somebody added the Crest, I am not going to go grinding on the blade to try to get it off, If it was added later, That would just make it worse. So, I must accept it as it is, for what it is. 3FL

Thanks Vern, I'll use some Ren-Wax on the grip. I've looked at this dagger "frequently" and have never noticed even a hint of gilt on the eagle. When "louped" it actually appears to have a black burnish behind the swastika and to the wings and wreath. The crest measures 2 cm by 2 cm (or 3/4 inch by 3/4 inch)and is convex and very tight fitting to the grip. It appears to be pinned to the handle, though I'd need to find someone to x-ray it to state that definitively. As a side bar, the background to the piece also does not suggest that it has been tampered with either. It was purchased from a Canadian vet about 42 years ago. It had been located by a collector friend/mentor, who was an RCMP officer. He was being moved and had decided to get out of the hobby, so he put me on to the guy. It cost me a significant amount, even back then, so when the vet and I finally concluded our dealings, as part of the agreement and to safeguard myself, I had a detailed description of the dagger and the story of how it came into the vet's possession, legally drawn up, signed, and notarized.

I'll try to get some better pictures taken of it today and will post them as soon as I can.

Many thanks again! ~ Ian

Louie, Horster did make a good copy of the WPP using their modern parts, the embosed scabbard and the wobbly ball pommel Who is the maker on your piece? And Ian, I have seen originals with the silver eagle but the docs are a great idea. Who is the maker on your dagger?

Sorry Vern, I'd ment to include that in my last post. It's an Eickhorn with the 1935-41 stamped, as opposed to the etched, squirrel. Unfortunately it is the only piece I was able to document in that manner. I had great plans to do it with other items but for various reasons i.e. it was too costly or time consuming or the person was giving me the items and I was wary of offending them, it just never got done again. Also, with the WWP it really was a matter of this being a "big ticket" purchase for a young guy and though I was confident in my friends assessment, I was already starting to develop a concern about the number of fakes that were starting to surface.

Ian, you have the same mark I have. I thought that pommel looked familiar The dagger without the eagle is also stamped but with the squirrel looking over his shoulder.

Excellent Vern, the "over the shoulder" squirrel is the only Eickhorn squirrel I haven't captured yet! I'm still trying to take a few "JR" style photos, so we'll see how they turn out. In addition to the silver portepee, mine also came with a set of naval style hangers. Does your's have the much harder to come by blue/gold type hangers that match the knot? ~ Ian

I agree with George. These blades are well known fakes. I had a chance to purchase a blade with the same etch for $50 one time.

Doug

My hangers are black leather with gilt Army style fittings. The "no eagle" has regular Navy hangers.

Doug, I will buy all you can get of these "well Known Fakes" at $50 a throw! Vern, Mine has no maker mark other than the Police Eagle. It does have the letters C and A inside of an H and the Number 475 on the tang! 3fl

C and A inside an H is the foundery mark for Carl August Hartkopf.

Thanks Vern, any guesses as to what the Number means? 3FL

My guess would be an assembly number. An issue number would be on the blade and/or scabbard.

Vern, The presence of that Hartkopf cipher on the tang does NOT mean that the dagger was made by Hartkopf, right? I have seen that symbol on blades by a couple of different makers. 3FL

C. A. Hartkopf was a foundery, not a manufacturer. They produced blades for a number of makers.

Well Vern, the following is my attempt to produce a better selection of photos of my WWP dagger. If you do not deem them any longer to be appropriate to this thread, please feel free to delete them.

Maker's mark.

Grip eagle.

Handle

. . .

Blade . . .

Very nice! To be honest, I've been thinking of moving or copying this to the Misc. Daggers forum. Nice photos and lots of good info

Beautiful Dagger, Bushido! Very Nice Photos!
3FL

Thank you both gentlemen, I truly appreciate your comments and the opportunity your thread Louie, gave me to share it! It has been my pride and joy for many, many years now and I must say, as with most daggers, looks even better "in-hand." Even the scabbard still has most of its lacquer! Thank you Vern, I'll look for this thread in it's new location. ~ Ian

It is my opinion based on my experience and having seen multiple examples over the years that ALL the WPP daggers with the eagle on the grip are "custom" applied--either at the factory or somewhere else. Some are period without question-some are not. They seem to be "unofficial" but tolerated. This opinion is based on the fact that---There are no known period references or regulations relative to these eagles and there seems to be a wide variety of types-no standardization- with some pieces having been around for a very long time. In addition -some of these pieces that have been around for a long time seem to be conversions using the older black horn grips. This makes it extremely difficult or almost impossible to determine what is period and what is not. IMO that is why these pieces are often avoided and there is always a wide difference of opinion if they are period or not.
It is also my opinion that all the pieces with the etched eagle applied to the blade are not period. The blade may be but the eagle etch is not. This is also true of the Hunting pieces with DJ emblems on the blade.
Navy Scabbards with embossed bands can be orignal. The last ditch STEEL plated ones are like this. They also have a spring. But-IMO-the brass alloy ones are post war.
Just thought I would throw these thoughts out for your consideration.

Hi Houston and Thanks for the comments. Just to keep things square, I do NOT, and did not, think this scabbard is 3R! I believe it to be a '57 Version Like I said above and I still believe it is. I just added the comment about the bands as a FWIW. Also, As I said above, I don't know if the etched Badge on the blade is period or not, But, Even if it is not, The Blade itself is quite real. To Try to "correct" the blade would just make the situation worse, so I must accept it for what it is. I think that a lot of collectors would just dismiss a Naval scabbard with the embossed bands as Repro out of hand. So I figured the information was worth reporting. 3FL