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#84439 07/27/2006 11:30 PM
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Hey Vern! Do you think you could do anything toward fixing the scabbard on this dagger? I don't have the tools I need to get into something this tight. Take a look and let me know what you think. 3FL















Thanks Much! 3FL


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#84440 07/28/2006 03:19 AM
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I have a steel mandril that will go all the way to the end Wink Should be able to do something with it.


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#84441 07/28/2006 03:51 PM
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Hey Louie: I'm sure you are aware that this is a postwar scabbard.

#84442 07/28/2006 04:24 PM
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Hi Manfred,

Yes, It is a '57 scabbard. Only one I could find since the dag did not have one when I got it. It'll do until something better comes along! I am looking for a TR period scabbard, by the way. But with Navals being so expensive, I can't even afford to buy a rat to steal the scab. Know what I mean! 3FL


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#84443 07/28/2006 04:31 PM
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I'm curious , is that pommel plated or solid brass. For some reason it looks different from the x guard. My 2 cents. T

#84444 07/28/2006 05:03 PM
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Hey Tiep,

It appears to be solid Brass, but it is a little shinier than the crossguard. Lots of rubbing?


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#84445 07/28/2006 05:09 PM
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There is more gilding left in the recesses of the pommel than the crossguard also. Maybe that is what you are seeing along with the camera flash.


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#84446 08/01/2006 03:08 PM
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Manfred Vogel, I just wanted you to clarify something! I think I know what you are basing your determination that this scabbard is Post War on. And that has been my belief also. BUT, I have just garnered a little tidbit of information that I may want to pass on to all. Please tell me what you were seeing that told you the scabbard was Post War. Anyone else please feel free to chime in also. I think you will find this very interesting. 3FL


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#84447 08/01/2006 06:44 PM
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I also thought it was postwar. The bottom ball is normally a seperate solid piece soldered in when the shells are assembled. Are the scabbard bands embossed or seperate?


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#84448 08/01/2006 06:48 PM
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Could it be the scabbard bands look too thin, maybe not a separate piece of the scabbard, the throat looks possibly odd too. Tiep

#84449 08/01/2006 07:18 PM
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Well, I was thinking that probably what Manfred had noticed was the fact that the scabbard bands were embossed. Which is what would have been the first Red flag for me if I was looking at it. The Tidbit of information I picked up is that this (embossed bands) is NOT a stone rule for Post war Navals. I bought that scabbard off E-bay adertised as a Pre-1945 Scabbard and paid a good price for it. I asked for a refund from the seller, based on it being Post War. They refused to do the refund, The scabbard was also damaged in the mail because the seller had shipped it from Germany in an Envelope. Anyway, I approached Tom Johnson due to the fact that paypal wanted documentation that the scabbard was a repro / Post war and he informed me that he no longoer holds the opinion that Scabbard bands on pre '45 Scabbards were always applied. So I guess there goes another red flag we can use on these. 3FL


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#84450 08/02/2006 12:50 AM
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I just picked up a complete Horster "Reissue" set on a trade, and that is a current production Horster scabbard. Embossed bands and nicely detailed hanger rings Wink

Horster-1.jpg (66.34 KB, 265 downloads)

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#84451 08/02/2006 03:19 AM
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First I'd like to say how much I appreciated learning the scabbard "red flags," thank you! I notice Louie that your dagger appears to have a gold coloured eagle affixed to the handle and a police eagle engraved on the blade ricasso, am I correct? I'm interested in this because they are contrary to mine (see below) and I'm curious to know what other differences exist? Again, thank you for sharing.

WaterPro2.jpg (35.12 KB, 249 downloads)

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#84452 08/02/2006 03:45 AM
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Here are the two I have, both Eickhorns. Neither has the badge on the blade.

WPP.jpg (66.8 KB, 239 downloads)

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#84453 08/02/2006 04:45 AM
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Excellent Vern, thank you. I need to take some better pictures of mine however, have you seen any others with the police crest engraved on them? One other thing, have you used anything on the handles to give them that "wet-leather" look?


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#84454 08/02/2006 05:16 AM
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Man, I love those reef knot portopees! I notice that one of yours has the gold Eagle also Vern. I have seen them both ways. Yes, Mine has the Police Eagle on the Ricasso, I have seen this in a book, on one other one "in Hand" And this one. I will take some better pics of the blade and post them.


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#84455 08/02/2006 12:48 PM
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I use Ren-Wax on my wood and leather grips, but I think the "wet leather" look is more from the camera flash. Most of the WPP daggers with the eagle are gilt, or have gilt in the eagle recesses. I have seen a few with the silver eagle but I think the concern is that it's been replaced with an eagle from a Police Bayonet. I've also seen them with the Police crest. They have been reproed both ways Wink


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#84456 08/02/2006 03:56 PM
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Louie,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the etched eagle on your blade ricasso is improper, IMHO. I saw very convincing fakes of this dagger in Germany some 15 years ago with Polizei eagles etched on the ricasso in this manner.

A close up will tell the tale but this eagle is neither the 1934 Polizei eagle or the 1936 Polizei eagle. The etching should duplicate one or the other but this one seems to be more of a WAG at what a police eagle should look like. The 1934 eagle has pointed wings and no wreath around the swastika. The 1936 eagle looks exactly like the emblem on the grip. It appears the etched eagle on your blade looks nothing like either one.

George


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#84457 08/02/2006 05:42 PM
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Hi George, I appreciate the input. I KNOW that the Blade is real, Original, Pre-45, whatever. If somebody added the Crest, I am not going to go grinding on the blade to try to get it off, If it was added later, That would just make it worse. So, I must accept it as it is, for what it is. 3FL


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#84458 08/02/2006 08:14 PM
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Thanks Vern, I'll use some Ren-Wax on the grip. I've looked at this dagger "frequently" Big Grin and have never noticed even a hint of gilt on the eagle. When "louped" it actually appears to have a black burnish behind the swastika and to the wings and wreath. The crest measures 2 cm by 2 cm (or 3/4 inch by 3/4 inch)and is convex and very tight fitting to the grip. It appears to be pinned to the handle, though I'd need to find someone to x-ray it to state that definitively. As a side bar, the background to the piece also does not suggest that it has been tampered with either. It was purchased from a Canadian vet about 42 years ago. It had been located by a collector friend/mentor, who was an RCMP officer. He was being moved and had decided to get out of the hobby, so he put me on to the guy. It cost me a significant amount, even back then, so when the vet and I finally concluded our dealings, as part of the agreement and to safeguard myself, I had a detailed description of the dagger and the story of how it came into the vet's possession, legally drawn up, signed, and notarized.

I'll try to get some better pictures taken of it today and will post them as soon as I can.

Many thanks again! ~ Ian


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#84459 08/02/2006 09:42 PM
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Louie, Horster did make a good copy of the WPP using their modern parts, the embosed scabbard and the wobbly ball pommel Wink Who is the maker on your piece? And Ian, I have seen originals with the silver eagle but the docs are a great idea. Who is the maker on your dagger?


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#84460 08/03/2006 02:18 AM
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Sorry Vern, I'd ment to include that in my last post. It's an Eickhorn with the 1935-41 stamped, as opposed to the etched, squirrel. Unfortunately it is the only piece I was able to document in that manner. I had great plans to do it with other items but for various reasons i.e. it was too costly or time consuming or the person was giving me the items and I was wary of offending them, it just never got done again. Also, with the WWP it really was a matter of this being a "big ticket" purchase for a young guy and though I was confident in my friends assessment, I was already starting to develop a concern about the number of fakes that were starting to surface. Wink


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#84461 08/03/2006 02:39 AM
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Ian, you have the same mark I have. I thought that pommel looked familiar Wink The dagger without the eagle is also stamped but with the squirrel looking over his shoulder.


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#84462 08/03/2006 03:53 AM
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Excellent Vern, the "over the shoulder" squirrel is the only Eickhorn squirrel I haven't captured yet! I'm still trying to take a few "JR" style photos, so we'll see how they turn out. In addition to the silver portepee, mine also came with a set of naval style hangers. Does your's have the much harder to come by blue/gold type hangers that match the knot? ~ Ian


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#84463 08/03/2006 08:14 AM
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I agree with George. These blades are well known fakes. I had a chance to purchase a blade with the same etch for $50 one time.

Doug

#84464 08/03/2006 01:18 PM
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My hangers are black leather with gilt Army style fittings. The "no eagle" has regular Navy hangers.


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#84465 08/03/2006 03:14 PM
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Doug, I will buy all you can get of these "well Known Fakes" at $50 a throw! Vern, Mine has no maker mark other than the Police Eagle. It does have the letters C and A inside of an H and the Number 475 on the tang! 3fl







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#84466 08/03/2006 03:53 PM
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C and A inside an H is the foundery mark for Carl August Hartkopf.


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#84467 08/03/2006 04:13 PM
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Thanks Vern, any guesses as to what the Number means? 3FL


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#84468 08/03/2006 04:58 PM
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My guess would be an assembly number. An issue number would be on the blade and/or scabbard.


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#84469 08/03/2006 05:29 PM
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Vern, The presence of that Hartkopf cipher on the tang does NOT mean that the dagger was made by Hartkopf, right? I have seen that symbol on blades by a couple of different makers. 3FL


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#84470 08/03/2006 10:35 PM
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C. A. Hartkopf was a foundery, not a manufacturer. They produced blades for a number of makers.


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#84471 08/04/2006 03:38 AM
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Well Vern, the following is my attempt to produce a better selection of photos of my WWP dagger. If you do not deem them any longer to be appropriate to this thread, please feel free to delete them.

WWPlayout.jpg (74.83 KB, 140 downloads)

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#84472 08/04/2006 03:39 AM
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Maker's mark.

WWPmaker.jpg (73.32 KB, 140 downloads)

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#84473 08/04/2006 03:40 AM
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Grip eagle.

WWPeagle.jpg (72.33 KB, 135 downloads)

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#84474 08/04/2006 03:41 AM
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Handle

WWPhandle.jpg (74.59 KB, 131 downloads)

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#84475 08/04/2006 03:42 AM
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. . .

WWPhandle2.jpg (73.95 KB, 131 downloads)

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#84476 08/04/2006 03:45 AM
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Blade . . .

WWPblade.jpg (67.27 KB, 131 downloads)

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#84477 08/04/2006 10:41 AM
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Very nice! To be honest, I've been thinking of moving or copying this to the Misc. Daggers forum. Nice photos and lots of good info Wink


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#84478 08/04/2006 01:34 PM
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Beautiful Dagger, Bushido! Very Nice Photos!
3FL


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