UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories German Military Uniform Forum Army Tropical M41

Posting these for a friend and fellow collector...would greatly appreciate thought, opinions good or bad on this cap...thanks!

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8 last photo..and thanks for looking!

Hi All, IMO this is a 100% un-messed with original cap. It is an awesome cap.Text book example(see the 2nd cap in J.R. Figueroa's book) I may have checked this very cap out some years ago as it was up for sale and offered to me first. I, of course couldn't come up with the funds for what I thought was an exorbitant amount(from a well respected dealer, of course) Now the last one that I got to see at the West coast show at Pomona last May was double the amount of this one. Sorry for rambling and many thanks for sharing. We need to see more tropical stuff. By the way, if the cap is for sale, I'd be interested.

Thanks for the help Mike...I certainly appreciate it...the only thing that concerned me somewhat was the stampings...I have a similar cap..with just RB..I know this(I thought)version with the oil cloth was a bit later issue and didnt know if they produced them in 42...but of course...its all certainly possible..I dont know if the gentleman who was considering its purchase chose this cap or another one he had in mind..I'll check back with him if you like..thanks again!

Here's one I picked up about ten years ago..its not the same exact as in Fig's book..but I believe the construction and Rb Nr is identical. Those who are skeptical of "unissued" pieces may dismiss it as repro..but its not..its just like new and someone before me took very very good care of it. I wish it had the soutache, but I believe this was discontinued long prior to this issue.

My cam does not do well with closeups.the vent holes are as they should be inside and out.

Rear with what I believe to be the classic "teardrop" shape.

I know its a bit off point..but here are two items I like to display with this cap..the book has the original german's name and the americans who liberated it..dedicated to his wife..

Closeup of ring

Hi Guys, cap looks good to me also. Apparentley this would be an M40 because that's the year the Heer tropical cap was introduced. M41's are the Luft trop cap because they were a year later.
Very rare to see a 42 dated M40 and still with a soutache if I'm not mistaken.

Hi Scott, I have an identical cap to yours. Stne cold mint and never worn. These probably came out of a string tied 'stack' that was broken up for individual sale. I remember being at the MAX in Pitt. some years back before I knew enough to be there on Thur. and there were at least 3 stacks of DAK o'seas caps and rumor of the M41s(at least that is what I always called them) being instantly sold off after being cut free. I witnessed 1 stack of o'seas cut loose and they were all sold too.Very nice book and ring.

Hi Scott, I need to correct myself a little here now that I have my cap in front of me. The RB Nr in mine is much smaller and faint. Almost impossible to read and the size 54 and 43 are large so, almost idenetical to yours. I am interested(as probably are others)if the cap is available. The last one I looked at was the 1st type without the sweat band and a beautiful golden yellow 'recon' soutache. It was worn and slightly 'salty'. I could have had it for only $5000. Needless to say, it ain't mine.

I am a little concerned about this maker stamp and the trop eagle seems re-applied.
Also, isnt this soutache a Russian front soutache on a trop cap?
What about the grommets? Painted?

TW-the grommets are fine..as they should be which includes the placement, dimensions and thickness..so is the paint..also..soutache is soutache..whether it is seen as here on a tropical cap..a continental overseas cap..or otherwise..it is sometimes referred by collectors as "russia-braid" or russo braid to denote the pink soutache sometimes found on late war Army Panzer wrappers where the pink soutache is sewn directly onto the lapel instead of a seperately affixed rhomboid..however, it is perfectly fine..and does not exist in two seperate or different styles for tropical vs. non tropical caps..its just as it should be.

I will take the opposing view of the cap that begins this thread. It is 100% repro. Insignia is synthetic, easily acquired repro, inkstamp is incorrect as well as is the soutache which is silk and not cotton as it should be. This cap was on eBay a couple of years ago...sold as a 'repro'. Sorry for the bad news.

Robert

I would agree with Robert's comments.


Also look at the heavy soiling/wear to the exterior of the hat,however the interior/markings etc are very crisp. Don't care for the vent grommets either.



Glenn

Dittos Feld, grommets are bad as is the fabrication of the entire hat! 100% bogus.

Robert

From Figueroa DAK headgear book...the real stamp that the repro tries to emulate...not even close.

Robert

My, My, I'm glad to see that this is drawing some of the 'tropical' authorities out of the wood work. Now without actually holding this little gem in my own hands, I of course cannot be 100% certain of anything(and sometimes holding it in my hands only raises more questions). I am not seeing what you guys are seeing maybe. What is wrong with those vent gromments? And the soutache? Cotton? not on any of my caps(I prefer rayon) And I don't see any soiling, just light wear that appears uniform to me. And the only difference that I see in the stamp is that the size number is different. Very common to stamp the size from a separate tool. If this hat is 100% bad, I'd still be happy to have it in my collection. As far as the insignia being synthetic, how can you tell. I would like a better scan of the eagle as some of his feather details are obscure. I wish I could post some photos but, I need my kid to help me and he is not around at the moment. Please show us what ya got everybody, we need to see more tropical stuff.

Yeah, it would be nice to see more tropical stuff. Especially from the more knowledgeable authorities.
It will allow us to study mroe and grow in the field.
Thanks in advance.

My DAK items were all sold in the late 90's...here's a display case I used to have in the den.

Hope you all can find some real DAK caps...the eBay cap does not cut it.

Robert

Some additional shots I found.

Robert

I can´t say anything about the cap, but the eagle is a known repro. I started a thread about cap eagle long time ago. Everyone says that this eagle is repro.

After looking again, I also agree that the eagle is a repro. Crotch, head and chest feathers are nothing like a 'good' one. Let's hear more about the rest of this cap. I still think it is a 'good' cap and if I'm wrong, then I would sure like to get 'educated'. I had the opportunity to handle 3 1st type caps at the MAX with soutache and no sweat bands. 2 were close but, no cigar and the 3rd one was well bleached and 'good' IMO. I have not yet encountered a repro with a sweatband attempting to mimic the known factory manufactured type.

As I've mentioned a couple of times, this cap was sold on eBay as a 'repro'...the listing quite clearly stating a 'museum quality knock-off'! All of the 'repro' insignia and authentic looking sweatband is 'machine stitched' which means done at the time of assembly...so this is your first encounter.

Robert

The cap that started this post does not display any indication of being a reproduction.Everything that I viewed(with possible exception of the eagle)appears proper and correct for this period of production and particular manufacturer.The stitching,grommets,sweatband,visor,interior,soutache and from what I can see of the manufacturer stamp all look as they should.If in fact this was the cap on ebay...I wish I had seen it.Listing an item on Ebay or anywhere else and labeling it as repro.....dosent nesscessarily make it so.That is an example of one person with a lack of knowledge taking advice from another with an equal amount of knowledge.As far as the eagle is concerned.....from that photo....I cant determine anything....I am amazed anyone else can.No original tropical cap eagle(ofcourse I am generalizing according to the 6 in front of me...and those I ve seen) have a black detail line as this one does in the photo.However...I credit this to a poor photograph.So with that in mind I couldnt say for sure one way or the other whether this eagle is period or repro.BenVK....where did you acquire the knowledge that the "Feldmutze mit schirm"..."Tropenfeldmutze"...or "Afrikamutze"(the Germans never called these caps M40s or M41s)was introduced in 1940.The first units of the AfrikaKorp didnt arrive in Africa until feb.1941....and they were issued Tropenhelms(that would be the M41 pith helmet in collector terms).The soutache remained on the caps until late 42.

Dave,
There is no doubt about it that the eagle is a repro. This is the type seen used on a line of repro caps which appeared a few years ago. Notice the base material of the eagle seen folded over, it is not correct for these eagles.
Compare it to originals and it is easy to see the difference. I've posted a pic of an original for comparison.

Mark

Nice Mark...looks to have had its soutache removed. Appears to be the style that had holes made in the body to accomodate soutache.

Also, for Dave...German production of tropical items began in 1940...there are '40 dated items of clothing, including caps. to verify that. Better buy some reference books Dave and bone up on your DAK stuff...you don't know diddly.

Robert

Congratulations RGD51...after 5 years on this Forum your the first to really P*** me off!Why dont you point out what I need to "bone up on" by pointing out anything I stated above that was grossly inaccurate!Why dont you post some of the caps in your collection that are dated from 40.While your at that post info on some of the amazing references that state these field caps were produced prior to 41.I have plenty of reference books on the subject....not one gives a date earlier than 41 for Tropical field caps.Since I "dont know didley" enlighten me!And point out my gross inaccuracies that prompted your insults!I dont intentionally insult anyone on this forum....but if you attack me with **** like your last post expect the same!

From Dal McGuirks'Rommels Army in Africa' here's a gold soutached recon cap also a lime green piped tunic. All 1940 dated according to Dal.

Tunic

Here are 2 1940 dated caps from the Afrikakorps book by Kurtz.

Robert

Pioneer bleached out.

Robert

You've just been enlightened! So go buy some new books and start reading...schmuck!

Robert