UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Extremely rare "Ehrendolch" at Weitze, any thoughts?

My last comment on this piece is: Have you ever looked closely at the quality of an HJ Leader's Dagger by Horster M7/36?? I don't see too much difference here.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Well. I don't know too much about this sort of dagger but I do know a little about artificial damascus and I don't see anything wrong with it, it's not like the real damascus at all,my example of an artificial damascus blade has this appearance it doesn't look the most attractive example I ever saw but it looks genuine, I once did a silly thing and whilst trying to clean a small area of greying near the lower crossguard of an SA daggerI cleaned so hard that I took away all the dirt that sometimes acumulates between the blade shoulders and crossguard, this is possibly what has happened here. All of the parts look original to me so I don't think there's anything wrong with it. If I was going to buy it though I would want a hands on just to determine it's condition.

Gary

Dear fellow collectors. I am really speachless! Have some of us really lost the least sense for true history and taste, the minimum of feeling for the right thing and the healthy ability to detect the most obvious fakes? You know the story of the king�s outfit? Are really some of us incapable to see that THIS king is nude????

Or are there unscrupulous �collectors� between us who neglect all this in the intention not to be disturbed in doing their �business�??? I do not want to believe the last thought and the first one is terrific for our hobby and mostly for OUR FORUM.

I am also really angry because this thread even led to namecalling and PM�s of lowest and most primitive level. A SHAME FOR SOME MEMBERS HERE!
Sorry, but what I have read and got within personal, informative PM�s cannot be described further and is truly OUTRAGEOUS.

I did not post more in my first two statements within this thread because I did not believe this discussion could go that way. So now only some of my observations:
Although I am collecting edged weapons of this certain period now about for 38 years, I cannot compare myselve with the �oldtimers� of this hobby. But I could observe that up to few years (I think three or five years) you have never seen nor heard of ANY of these certain placartive items. Please, �Oldtimers� do correct me when I am wrong.
It started with the �dedicated� hunting weapons from the �Allgemeinen Deutschen Jagdschutz Verein� and now (exactly the same style of the blade, mostly H�RSTER trademarked) come to HJknives (see TMJ �German Daggers�� Vol.4) and this certain SAdagger. A lot of �only damast blade� or �nearly the entire edged weapon made out of damst steel� edged weapons also with the H�RSTER mark are worth to be mentiond in this case too.

First they popedup mainly at the most spurious dealers in our hobby -to avoid any misunderstandings: I DO NOT MEAN THE DEALER WHO CURRENTLY IS OFFERING THIS CERTAIN DAGGER (!- (at least here in germany) where they are offered until today. Nobody else even has thought of touching such an obvious fake. Now as (few) time has gone over them they popup at other dealers and even major references. I cannot hear any more the stories behind them: �does come directly from a castle�, �in a collection for xxx ;-) years�, �from a veteran� and much, much more.

In the meantime it is totally equal, if the blade is in good shape or heavily rusted (like this certain one) because the skyrocket price is as good as the same (because of the socalled �rarity�).

Those, who do appreciate such edged weapons (as I do not want to force you to believe them to be fakes!) will have very lucky years ahead of them. They will get a lot of �decorative� looking and said to be etremely rare blades for also extreme prices. A lot to look for a lot to pay for and a lot to think over.
Those who know only will shake their heads.

I have the feeling that we now stand at an unbelievable but very important point of our hobby and our forum. Those who want history and those who want story(ies). Those who want to feel and explore true history and those who like to look simply and uncritical at �pictures�.

Please appologize that I am very angry about this case but I personally DO NOT LET the fakers and the sellers of obvious fakes look at ME like beeing a bloody damned fool!!!! I hate them for even stealing me (and all the other serious members here) the time to write an imo now necessary statement which nothing has to do with not not beeing open minded.

Fellow Collectors, I would like to make a statement, there are many collectors that like to use the word "textbook" to describe an item. I understand that people use these as a reference guide, BUT that�s were it should stop. How many times have the books been proven wrong??? Many books over the years have made mistakes, thus and miss lead collectors? There are many GREAT reference books on the market, but just keep in mind just because a detail is not in a book it does not mean an item is always "bad" because it�s not "textbook". I have stated before in ANY and ALL manufacturing process there are many undocumented variables, and errors. There are many one-of-a-kind items that people poo, poo because it is not in a book. It could be just poor craftmen ship, or a parts dagger, or a prewar fab? All legit possibilities.

One think higher education taught me was to ask questions about the "norm". Once people thought the earth was flat!

Ron,Houston,Vern in your many years as a collector I am sure you can point out many examples.

Wotan-I understand your almost total rejection of the non-standard/personalized/presentation pieces as they have been, and are, a "mine field" for the collector with many fakes around. I feel pretty much the same way ( I don't collect these ) except that I do believe ( and perhaps I am totally wrong )that some-perhaps even many are period. But--as it has been said many times-it often is really impossible to tell for sure-many will condemn all etc. So-like you-I don't like to always have to be defending and wondering about the items I collect.
In my over 50 years of collecting I have seen-like Ron-quite a number of the personalized/presented/numbered pieces. They have ALWAYS been around-even in the pre-Atwood days.
That is something to consider as no one knew much of anything then. Another thing is that I think most of these special pieces were "liberated" and brought back by the Allied Forces--because--if there was a "pile" of daggers to choose from--would you take the fancy engraved piece or the plain? I think the answer is obvious. The result is that -IMO there were not that many of these left in Germany-so the collectors from the Allied countries have seen more originals of this type. Many fakes of special daggers were made post war in Germany to make up for this lack of available pieces-and some/many have found their way to other countries over the years. But my point here is that PERHAPS the German collector who does not travel overseas has not seen the amount of ORIGINAL "special" pieces that we have. Just my thoughts-maybe I am totally wrong??? Maybe they are all fake I don't worry too much about it-because- I don't like the way things are--the reality of the pitfalls of collecting this type of thing-so I don't collect them.

Since all the respected members of GDC seem to be hanging out here, please take a look at the Heer forum and give me your opinions of the Adolph Braun Heer dagger. Another example of a non textbook dagger that can't possibly be original.

Just a comment on a previous comment by Ron. I personally have collected and researched German daggers, my first love since I was 17. I am now 41. I may not be 65 but I certainly have the experience and have owned much, researched much and have seen much in those 24 years of collecting. My opinion is that I do not like the piece. Opinions were asked for and I expressed mine. It may very well be good a good piece but I seem to recall a certain sword awhile back that was blessed by many of our hobby's knowledgeable collectors. Nuff said there.If every piece requires a hands on inspection for an opinion what is the purpose of posting pics and asking for the same? As for condemming "poor old Helmut" He has the reputation of offerring/selling at best the odd questionable piece.His reputation is his making, not mine. I have seen items that are questionable at best on his tables at Max shows.He also offers many very nice, rare and perfectly authentic items. Most in this hobby know those dealers who offer fakes or questionable items so why ***** foot around semantics. I have heard him mentioned in the same vein as Kai and Hermann Historica. I don't recall anyone jumping to the aid of Brant Murphy or Ron Manion when their names were previously mentioned. I suppose if you have a univerally bad name and reputation than all is "fair game" No slight intended here and I for one respect you and have purchased from you in the past. Since my comments were in the "fake" category I saw myself lumped in within your post. cheers, Ryan

WoW I didn't know a 5 letter word for cat when used in the context above was offensive. See that it has been edited. cheers, R

To erase any possible misunderstandings: Here I only refered to this certain dagger mentioned in the first post of this thread and necessarily to the group of very special H�RSTER marked artificial or true damast items which fit directly this one.
Don�t believe I would not be openminded for any at least POSSIBLE (!) period item, even inscriptions or dedications.
As I hate the word "textbook" for myself be also sure that "textbook" is NOT required!

Has anyone got or seen a Pre war photo of any of these engraved daggers being worm by anyone,cause I haved not.
It would be nice if someone could post a photo.Regards nats

http://members.lycos.nl/stantheman/

I'm going to take a stab at this and we'll see where it goes. It is my belief that these sidearms were in reality,and for the most part, considered to be a part of someones uniform and I don't get the impression that were particularly regarded as special certainly when it came to the unembellished examples. How many pictures have any of you seen where the owner is holding his dagger or sword out to be photographed individually? This is normal behavior for anyone who has a prized possession yet is seldom seen. I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen a clearly embellished dagger like the one in this post in wear and I'm drawing a blank. There are pictures extant that show daggers that appear to be imbellished but the focus isn't upon the dagger,it's upon the wearer or his group. There may be examples of such pictures but they would be uncommon.
I heartily disagree with the assertion that the majority of these embellished daggers were liberated from piles at the end of the war and are resident here. The mere fact that they were special to the owners and their familys would be ample reason for their secretion rather than dumping them into a pile. I suspect that the primary reason more haven't surfaced is due to the political tone in Germany so they remain,very quietly, with the original owners family.
I'd certainly be interested in others opinions.
Jim

My last comment around this topic.

B O H I C A

I really feel sorry for the people that are on the fence regarding the authenticity of this item. They are bound to find that the future holds many high priced lessons that they will pay. I've paid a few myself and can tell you it isn't a fun thing.

I'm speechless at the number that seem to be leaning towards believing in this item, but that's none of my business either.

Seems education (of those that don't have the experience/knowledge) and honesty (of those that know do have the experience/knowledge but maintain the opposite stance) has taken a back seat to greed.

I mean no disrepect to anyone. Only saying what I feel.

To each his own.

HELP PLEASE HELP!!!! This allien seems to part again!!! Look at the "HJ Edged Weapons Forum" the HJ damast thread.....