UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Extremely rare "Ehrendolch" at Weitze, any thoughts?

The inscription on the blade reads: "Brigadef�hrer Gutenberger in Kameradschaft gewidmet - Die SA F�hrer der Brigade 73". The blade appears to be damast and all the fittings bear some adornment.

Any thoughts from the experts on this piece would be very interesting

Pics from Weitze.net

Personally I would like some flowers and birds in the engravings .

authentic or not, and why (lots of detailed why please)

I personnally don't like it.
I'm no expert on damascus, very few of us really are, but I find the crafmanship on these fittings horrible.
I just can't believe that such a dagger was made by the very talented craftmen of Solingen..........no way.
The blade is obvioulsy "artificial" damascus and once again, without being an expert, one can only appreciate the poor design of the damas.
This to me, can in no way be an original period artificial damascus blade.
The repros that I have seen so far from India, are even better made.
Just my thought !

Gustavo, since this dagger comes from a well known dealer, I would also think that not too many so called "experts" will give their opinions.
Since I'm no expert, I have nothing to be worried about.
But seriously, look at those fittings.............they're damned ugly.

Pat, the finishing overall does look "crude" to me... but I have almost no real knowledge, and thats why im here I learn most from these discussions, especially when someone like you and other senior collectors (not senior in age Pat are able to pinpoint concrete details which are not right.

From the German description of the item on Weitze.net:

"This Dolch is shown in the technical book of T. Johnson �German Daggers onf World was II, volume 2, page 314, 315. Our Dolch is photographed likewise and appears shortly in the new technical book of Jason Burmeister and Brian Meaderer."

I have never seen an original blade with the maker's mark on the same side as the motto. That is usually a "Red Flag" for a post war blade. Anyone have an original like that to share?

I have two of the post war artificial damascus SS daggers that I've pictured here before. The one above appears to be exactly like them except for the motto. The crossguards also have the red flags one associates with post war and the "engraving" appears to be very crude. However; I always will defer on calling something a fake without a hands on inspection. Perhaps one of our members who is resident in Germany will oblige!
N.B. The damascus pattern on the post war blades is quite different from the period ones I've handled.
Jim

Well the fittings look "hand enhanced" for sure. At least that is a step in the right direction. But the stylized leaves and berries pattern I have never seen before. Those guys seemed to always stick with oakleaves and acorns, right? Ofcourse that alone is hardly "evidence" that the work is not period.

I am also NO expert but I think one thing is strange. The upper scabbers fitting has a central oval which obviously was created for the owners monogram. If the blade was deticated to an individual why was their monogram (family crest, whatever) never added to the sabbard fitting?

Asking price......20,000 $ USD.

Sadly enought, Mister Her Weitze has had some bad luck lately for having listed a few "questionable" daggers.

Allright: I'll let one of you guys steal this one for $15,000!

I actually do like yours much better.

Pat:
IMO: This is one of the best "Ten Foot" daggers around. It looks 100% legit. until you get within ten feet of it!!
Jim

The description says ," our (this ) dagger is pictured in the next book from Jason Burmeister and Brian Meaderer , published in short future !"

Something is fishy in Denmark if ANYONE actually believes this piece of junk is authentic. "Engraving", and I use the term loosely, is the pits. Fit looks to have been achieved by using a 4 lb. sledge hammer. Blade has the shottiest artificial damast I've ever had the opportunity to see. Maker mark is on same side of blade since the "craftsman" didn't know where it belonged. Whole thing looks to have "crafted" by a large monkey with a hammer.....

IF it's really going to be in a published book by two such notables (and I'd have to see that to believe it), I'll start right now by saying newcomers are about to take the horn, big time.........IF they swallow this as the real McCoy and buy items like this.

This is obviously a low classed attempt at putting the britches on some poor sucker and relieving them of their money.

I'm speechless that this was on a dealer's site.

I'm glad to see that many aren't afraid to speak out against a big shot dealer.
Very refreshing and I guess there's still hope in the hobby.
When something is obviously wrong, it should be spoken against.
I wouldn't want a new comer to be sucked away, especially at 20,000 $ USD.

I can only agree wholeheartly with Denny's last comment; "low classed attempt".

What a piece of junk.The fit of the blade to the crossguard is terrible, better fits on late RZM pieces. Anyone that still defends this guy should be ashamed of themselves. It has always been maintained that he and others sell some questionable crap. Although I will admit that he can be a decent chap and sometimes has some nice items of headgear there are no excuses for what we see here.

Denny, you hit the nail. I tried to express the same only in few words .

We;; it MUST be good...it a[[arently matches another allegedly owend by a Big name.Here is the text that accompanied...Yranslated from German.

From Weitze:

"SA Ehrendolch model 1933, lent of the SA brigade 73 at SA brigade leader Karl Gutenberger it concerns with this Ehrendolch a special fabrication of the company "E. & F. Hoerster Solingen". The grasp fittings from nickel, which engraves fronts of the two parierstangen as well as the head screw finely - the backs of the parierstangen does not engrave. The blade in Aetzdamast, on the front the foreign exchange of "everything for Germany" as well as the manufacturer mark. Back with dedication volume and oak leaves decoration "brigade leader Gutenberger in comrade shank dedicated - the SA leader of the brigade 73". Brown painted sheath, the sheath fittings in particularly long execution (completely differently than with the "normal" SA sA-Dolchen), likewise on the front with Ziergravur. Completely with brown leather pendant and ouple loop. The dolch is easily carried, the blade with some rust spots, which keep gold plating only weak. Nevertheless in good total condition. Karl Gutenberger was commander of the SA brigade 73 meals from 1935 to 1939, member in the German realm Reich. It changed 1940 as SS Brigadefuehrer to the SS, starting from June 1941 higher SS- and police leader "west". To end of war police carries to the SS Obergruppenfuehrer and general of the weapon S and. Carrier of the golden decoration of the NDDAP, NSDAP service honor in bronze, silver and gold, iron cross 2. Class (lent 1944), KVK 1. Class with swords and wounding badge in black (lent 1943). After 5 years prison it died 1961 in meals. Enclosed its biography. Extremely rare Ehrendolch, in this execution is only 1 further dolch of Hoerster well-known. This piece as M 36 Kettendolch, likewise assign from the SA brigade 73. This dolch is shown in the technical book of T. Johnson "German Daggers onf World was II, volume 2, page 314, 315. Our dolch is photographed likewise and appears shortly in the new technical book of Jason Burmeister and Brian Meaderer."

Thought this guy was a smarter dealer.

First of all, there are several misstatements here. There are MANY original presentation daggers, both standard inscripted blades and damascus, with the company trademark on the obverse side.
Next, I was with Tom Johnson when he purchased a damascus blade presentation SA directly from the veteran's family at a MAX Show in his hotel room that had the trademark (Eickhorn) on the obverse side of a damascus blade.
Then I HAVE seen a Horster with a damascus presentation blade with a similar style motto on the obverse with the Horster TM and it will be on the cover of my NPEA second edition. This dagger has been in a collection for several years, long before this current one has surfaced.
Now, I am not saying that this dagger listed in this thread does not warrant detailed examination, but I see nothing that would shout out fake or reproduction in my mind and past experience.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: I have never purchased anything from Weitze.

Vern, if you look in my first NPEA book, published 20 years ago, you will see a presentation Eickhorn NPEA Bensberg Dagger with the Eickhorn trademark on the obverse motto side. I have owned this dagger for over 25 years and have had SEVERAL people try and pry it out of my collection with five figure offers, so don't say that there are no daggers with the TM on the obverse side of the blade that are original.
Also, there are several in the works of Johnson and Wittmann over the years. Rare occurrance yes, but still it does happen.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

This particular dagger aside, I dont see how this is a benifit to anyone. And I am not really sure if opinions from administration have a place here.


But that is life as we know it.

This was a really bad idea from the beginning. But that is opinion.

Later,

Kris

Hey Gustavo? Who do you buy from?. Not that I deal with Weitz which I really dont.

But you opened a major can of worms, so lets look at your guy and see how perfect he is, what do you say?. Hmmm?

What is his name?

You have mail my friend.

Unreal! Where does this go?

I cant even edit a post from here, that is amazing. There is a very good chance that a problem will arise here. Someone will get slammed Big Time!!!!!!

Kris, your way of thinking seems very odd to me, and I really fail to understand your point.

Who do I buy from? Any dealer or fellow collector that has something I like and can afford (Gottleb, Lakeside, Wittman (until he banned me for evoking a discussion of daggers bought from him here), Johnson, Weitze and others)

"Lets look at your guy and see how perfect he is" MY guy? Odd thinking on your part. I have no "guy" or agenda here apart from learning. I post in compliance with GDC rules and my only motivation is to learn. Please note I have made no judgments on this dagger myself. I have bought from Weitze recently and spoken well of that experience here if you care to look

Well, since I'm no expert and hence, have nothing to worry about , if this is real, it's got to be the ugliest damascus dagger that I have ever seen.
For God's sake, I have seen better repros at the Max and SOS show.
Perhaps, I should buy my daggers in India from now on.
Damascus daggers that is.

If it is real, I'm certain that it was made on a late saturday night, right after a big drunken party.

I wouldn't need a hand inspection on this one and wouldn't certainly pay 20,000 $ for this babe, real or not.
Wouldn't even want it for a repro.
Better keep my money for celebartion on sunday afternoon.
What's on sunday afternoon you ask ?
FRANCE against ITALIA.

"Allez les Bleus !"

Hey Gustavo, you've been banned by Mister "inflated" Wiitmann ? Welcome home, that's make two of us.

RON
I see plenty that shouts out fake and reproduction...... AND I don't attach ANY significance to the fact that Someone bought something resembling this item from the vets family. An overused term (in most cases) if I may say so...

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I wouldn't own this "thing" even if it supposedly came from Eva Braun via a vet's family.......

Ron, I said I had not seen an original with the mark on the motto side, but have seen lots of repros with this feature. And I asked members to post examples so I could become better educated. This would definitely be a dagger for the advanced collector who has done his homework.

Vern et all: I thought that MOST of you come here to be educated and learn. Evidently now I see that there are some who are so closed minded that they can't buy books or accept the fact that there are some unusual pieces that come out of the woodwork from time to time.
I suggest that you all only buy and collect the standard, and somewhat boring common daggers and leave the unsual and extremely rare to those who understand the hobby and are willing to invest in their education necessary for being able to tell the difference.
This site was to educate and expand the hobby, but all I see now are those with a closed mind.
Dave, where are you now when we need your comments?
How about Houston?
Here we are again, convicting the poor dealer Weitze with NO EVIDENCE and those professing knowlege and claiming FAKE are the uneducated.
Please!
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

First I want to thank Gustavo for posting this item. I think it adds perspective to this hobby because it is important that we become acquainted with the non-textbook artifacts. There is a natural tendency by many authors of those textbooks to concentrate on mainstream items. Thus, many of the 'oddballs' that don't fit the mold are frequently not discussed and, hence, are often dismissed as fakes. Those who have been in this hobby for a ahile probably have come across items that don't follow the textbook to a tee. It is also apparent that the SA and NSKK have generated a number of special presentation pieces. We have seen regular daggers with leather covered scabbards and with unique hand engraved fittings and special high grade blades. We have no reason to assume that there were any limitations imposed of how fancy a dagger can be. And most certainly not at the Gruppenfuehrer level.
I would think that this would make a great collectable for an advanced and experienced collector who has everything and lots of money to spend. But most of us would most likely have other priorities. For a collector like that it shouldn't really matter what other folks think about the dagger's authenticity. And when money is no object resale potential should not be of concern to him. He would generally buy what he likes, and no one can deny that this is a unique and attractive collectable.

Well Manfred:
I certainly don't have your experience but I continue to come here and learn. I just went over to Weitzes site and looked at all the pictures and here's what I "learned".

*The crossguard to blade fit is sloppy.
*The grip to crossguard fit is also sloppy.
*The inletting of the gripeagle is like wise sloppy.
*The wood seems very plain for this type of dagger.
*The upper scabbard fitting appears to be one-piece and lacks screws
*The lower scabbard fitting also lacks screws. Pressed on?
*The "engraving' on the fittings strikes me as extremely amateurish.
*The damascus etch pattern is poor. IMO: The two post war examples I have are nicer that this.
*The fact that the scabbard is painted bothers me and it also looks like it was done recently.

I'll stick by my original opinion that a hands on inspection is in order here but I frankly don't like what I see.
Jim

Jim m: You have to be careful when you look at greatly enlarged photos. Keep in mind that these daggers were handmade and not CAD/CAM computer designed and machined. I haven't seen the reverse of the scabbard but on some of these the screws are centrally located in the back.

Some of us on this site don't seem able to tell a fake from an authentic dagger even with all the high level of knowledge that they seem to have gathered during their many glorified years in the hobby.

Seems as if those people missed part of their education, talking when they should have been listening.........

I'll take what I see over what Ron sees, anytime and most especially around this authentic piece of crapola.

I, likewise, thought it was the responsibility of GDC to point out BAD stuff so new collectors won't be taken in by pure junk, but then I have nothing to sell. The owner in this instance is really beside the point as I see it. IT'S all about this piece of pure junk.

No one has attacked Weitze, but only pointed out the obvious around a piece the gentleman has for sale. I have bought from him and will do so again, but NOT this.......JUNK.....

Car 54 (Dave), where are you?

Gent's,
Mr.Weitze wrote's me , that this dagger resides 35 years in a france collection , was brought to france by a french soldier once.

Most come hear for Education thats very true...if its real WW2 Production then someone will have to convince themselves its real.A piece such as this just does not conform to the Majority of known examples.I dont care who onwed it and what collection it was in.1970 was a Very weird time for the dagger collectors...that was the time MOST of the oddball repros were floating out...that was 35 years ago.

And for TW Banning someone from Buying their merchandise thats SAD...Makes you really wonder how serious he is anymore in taking an objective view of the Field...I for one encourage an items discussion...espicially when I sell it.

On the dagger fit itself this is Prewar Germany Folks....No matter what you say German workers Have Pride in the items they make....thats shown in the way items are finished and fit.Quality was allways number 1...even late war pieces show quality although a bit rough compared to earlier examples.This dagger just doen not bear any quality signs.

Since Ron mentioned my name I would have to say that I would have to see the dagger to make a judgement/opinion. ( And that is all one can do with a piece like this ) I see good things as well as the bad. As far as the popular perceived "FLAWLESS QUALITY" of all German prewar pieces I would have to say that that is absurd. Many,many examples show rather poor workmanship and fitting while others are almost truly flawless.
Ron is also correct when he says that there are many pieces that are not textbook ( Sometimes that can be good as there are mistakes in ALL of the textbooks). So--the bottom line on many of these is--It's a matter of opinion.
I can tell you that I am positive based on my experience that there are period political blades with TM's on the obverse.
Oh--and please remember that name calling is prohibited on GDC. I did see it on one of the above posts.

Thanks Houston. Do you have a photo of one you could post? And anything weird from Horster scares me a bit. They produced a lot of pieces back in the 1970's to special order. You may remember the SS Honor in damascus with the Himmler inscription that was at one of the early MAX shows. As I recall, it also had the trademark on the motto side.

Houston

Your the one who is using Flawless...I said Quality...The Quality is not in this piece from the pics shown.

A real "quality" piece should have no flaws or very minor ones. Not all early pieces have that "quality"--they have rather major flaws. There are MANY examples--to name just one--many Himmlers have a rather bad blade to crossguard fit. To add a bit more on the TM issue--Atwood produced quite a lot of political daggers with TM's on the obverse and even went so far as to "authenticate" them with his book. But--there are some period ones-usually presentations where the reverse inscription was a bit large so the TM was put on the obverse. I'll have to locate the photos.
Horster made a lot of fakes but also some very high quality period pieces-so-that TM does not alarm me too much-- in fact IMO it is seldom seen on damast fakes.

So it could be a piece where a guy ran into the shop, threw a bunch of Marks on the counter, and said "Hurry up. We're presenting it tomorrow" Could be OK, only a detailed examination would tell.