UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Armbands Real? Fake?

Anyone see a real armband in this blacklight test. What do you think?

Would you say the thread is glowing?

could you post actual pics? from what i see is late war rushed cut out circle with multi six peice swaz.

Eric,you need a standard first.. Take a modern white cloth,,check it.. Repeat test again and compare.
From your photos thats a glow,,and for me I wouldn't touch it..

Now, there wil be many who will show proof that the Germans,,and other had thetechnology to make synthetic brighter during WW2. True, but in my opinion it was unused technology.. Where is the proof it was actually used?

The most common of pieces ,,pieces thousands have been produced [printed arm shields,,'service of wehrmacht' armbands] don't glow.

I'm sure someone will come on and defend the glow but why buy something you have to have a story for one day when you or the wife sells it!!

I myself am a firm believer in the UV test. Not one item that I ever got directly from a veteran ever glowed.

That being said, items can be "phosporized" by cleaning detergents that can cause them to glow. From what I have seen this produces and uneven mottled pattern of reactivity. I can't really tell from the photos, but how even is the circle glow?

For my own experience I am not a 100% believer of the UV test, but it is pending on what is getting checked.

I received long time ago from a clothing store that still exists today in my German hometown a lot of Insignias. Most of them where LW insignias for the close "Fliegerhorst". Over all some piping on some of the shoulder boards was UV positiv and all was later war cloth insignias.

Further sure not all survived WW2 cloth items have never seen a chemical cleaner?

I am more based to look for an item and their construction.

I have found some of the late war produced armbands DO glow under a black light. I have bought MANY directly from veterans that did glow, but all were late war manufacture.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

Ron, as Robert hints to is that they simply could have been washed,,either machine or hand wouldn't matter either. There is no period documentation any items were produced with a whitener.. How about this question,,Why whould they need a whitener?

The armbands I had were in groups of 25 with the factory string ties still in place. I paid the veteran $3.00 each (remember this was over 20 years ago).
He also had Luftwaffe Sport's Shirt Eagles in lots of 25 and I had offered him $5.00 for a loose one he brought in first and then said "OK" and went to the car and brought in 73 more. I fainted and quit offering money until he produced everything he had and it was a load.
He had the lowest rank Political Leader Armbands (wool with blue piping) by the stack also (30 as I remember) and Army Breast Eagles by the role.
As I said, the cotton Pary Armbands glowed under black light and I know they had never been washed-no need to as they were MINT MINT.
Ron Weinand

I agree with Ron on this subject. Some wartime items will glow and some not. If it is made from a synthetic material some colors usually do. BUT the Germans were making synthetic materials long before the advent of the Nazi"s.
Using the ultraviolet glow test is NOT IRONCLAD. The only things that I am aware of that the ultraviolet light is used for by TRAINED museum personell is to see if an ancient ceramic piece has been repaired or not. Trained museologists view the glow light test as "voodoo science". I have seen WWI US tunics glow like a diamond in a goatsbutt because they had been washed in strong phospores soap. There are a multitude of factors to consider when using an ultraviolet light to determine age of material. Dark synthetic materials absolutely will not glow under ultraviolet light even if it was produced last week.

quote:

I have seen WWI US tunics glow like a diamond in a goatsbutt

Ron,,no offence but 20 years ago is nothing! They could have come from Globe or WW2 LTD and some of that stuff glowed. ,,maybe directly postwar late 45, 46 and made for the vets to take home. Weirder things have happened..

Lets stick to apples here,,,we are talking German, and 1930's to 1945.

The test I agree isn't an absolute,,and its only strictly for white...
Germans had Perlon also,, but it wasn't used for insignia..Just because it was period doesn't mean it was available or used..

*My question still stands,,why a whitener?? and how come some do,,and some don't....

Please! Definte offense. I have delt with hundreds of veterans and interview thousands in my previous profession and know when the story is valid or not.
Anyway, when was the last time you saw an actor impersonating a veteran with a stash of items of that volume still tied from the factory, especially selling at those low prices???
Ron Weinand

This is obviously one of those 'hot' topics among collectors and dealers. The problem is that the test is not absolute (as mentioned) and the results can be easily mis-interpreted.

I myself have not had anything directly from a vet that glowed, but I have not had that many late war printed items. None of my SS items glow, and none of the seam glow in my tunics.

I have seen new collectors shine UV lights on Vietnam cloth patches, see the reaction and walk away...

I think it is important for new collectors to realize that these are only tools, (although I do believe they are legitimate tools - unlike the previously mentioned "voodoo science" - but then I have no use for museum people, that horde the good stuff in storage and display mislabeled PC replica crap for the brain dead public )

I have also had new collectors scrape at helmet decals because they heard that "real ones won't come off" and a friend of mine lost a latewar LW clasp when a guy tried to "see if it was real" by bending it...

We always joked that if we replaced 1/2 the lights at any show with UV tubes, and turned them on, half of the dealers would go blind!

I think it would be neat to see some examples of original insignia that glows, maybe this could be done in some dark location, say the hotel bar at the SoS?

Something I would want to know IS
the manufacturing source of the lamp and
the chemical composition of the phoshpor
therein.Very important to know this with other things.A GOOD CHEMIST in a Lighting Company.(PhD) is a good source.There are several compositions depending on the end use.
First place to start!!
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Definte offense" , ,,that offends you? and after dealing with 100s of tough rough assed vets

*Ron,,I know NYC vets that would run you in circles and into the ground even if it was 50 years ago or last week.
I also know for a fact that you could buy armbands etc from Globe or WW2LTD in bulk if you wanted and they still have the tie on them..
There is also the fact that certain insignia was being made for the vets to bring back at the end of the war...
Another fact is that 99% of the printed foreign volunteer shields were certainly late war,,no original example glow..

My opinion is those that defend the glow [German WW2 manufacture on white cloth] either have some or are selling it...

My 2 questions still stand for anyone to answer..........

*Seiler,, I believe all the ground work you ask for has been done already and the way how to do it properly has been shown before on another forum... We MUST remember that we are only dealing with German WW2 manufacture of white color.. I've heard of other colors or certain piping showing a colored glow but I have no experience with it...

so c,mon guys is this armband a period peice???????? i still say yes

Are multi piece construction LATE war armbands often seen? All of the late war armbands of the common party variety that I have had are a single piece of printed cotton. The glowing armband at the top of the thread looks to be at least 2 pieces. None of the many cloth items I have direct vet purchased have ever glowed under black light. That's just my own exp. Is the Swaz embroidered onto the white backround on the above armband? Are the arms of the swaz seperate pieces or is the swaz printed?

The stack that I had was two piece with the center section printed and then sewn onto the red band. The red band was a thin, cheaper material than the early party band types.
Ron Weinand

can we see the armband with the lights on?

Mr. Jerry,
Here's some pictures of the armband in question. To me the material on the white disc looks like what i have seen on original SS armbands and the red material reminds me of a heavy flag material and it's kinda stiff. The Swas material also looks like what i have seen on SS armbands and is kinda faded just a little.

Eric

Crude construction on the disc.

close up

Reverse stitching

Reverse seam

Nothing like any WWII Party Armbands that I have ever seen. Poor construction and I would not buy this one.
Ron Weinand

For sure not original. Glowing or not!

GDC 0292 Gold

While the folded tape method of swazi construction is not normally seen on repro armbands, it certainly could be done. I imagine there were many High school productions of "The sound of Music" that used piles of armbands.

here is an original SS armband for material and construction comparison: