UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum How good are the Fakers getting at faking Daggers?

I thought the dagger aspect of the hobby was the safest because identifying a phony dagger was simple...Are the fakers getting good enough to fool us with these yet?

How far away is that reality? It would seem, in theory that the makers of these daggers in the 30s and 40s could start turning them out again with the same qualities like craftmanship and crossgraining, etc..I am a new dagger guy, so I
dont know alot about this aspect yet, but I would love to hear some opinions as to whether you guys think its just a matter of time, or if you believe that they may get very close to replicating them, but will never be able to fool someone who knows what theyre looking at...

Tex,

The basic daggers are very hard to fake. That is because they were made using many components from quality sources that had tight quality control. Look at the parts of a polical (SA/SS)dagger:

Tang nut
1 upper crossguard
1 lower crossguard*
1 rune button
1 eagle
1 wood grip*
1 blade
1 scabbard shell - 2 parts*
1 upper fitting - 2 parts*
1 lower fitting - 2 parts
1 carrying assembly - 2 parts
1 throatpiece assembly - 6 parts*
2 upper screws
2 lower screws

* these parts must have a common radius for a correct fit.

The fakers cannot find half these parts today. They use a combination of faked/altered parts to make a ruined dagger look better or fake a rare maker or fake a more valuable (like SS) dagger. Handle enough of these and the basic fakery is not to hard to see.

Where I think (note this is just my opnion) the fakers have a field day is with things that cannot be proven conclusively as real.

- Dedications, inscriptions, and numbers added to good basic daggers. These are hard to verify and doubly difficult because engraving styles, abbreviations, punches, etc all varied. You will see endless debates here over these additions. In the end, it is often a judgement call.

- Damascus blades. Different patterns were used at the time and some were used a lot more than others. Does unfamiliar mean fake ? Who knows, but the people who put in fake damascus blades depend on this.

- High end specials. These are elaborate fakes or put-togethers that are mostly claimed to be one-time-only awards or presentations. These fakes were aimed at the high-roller collectors, not the common guy. They were seen in earlier times beforethe Internet and forums like this spread the word, but you see them now and then on "dagger wall pictures".

That's my 2c

Dave

WOW...
Thanks for that response...Very informative...
A lot of info there, and I appreciate it..

I think anything that was made 70 years ago is much easier to make I mean fake today.Cloth and medals are but two examples.I read once that a very well known dealer said that most Himmler daggers were iffy(is that a word).Look at the million dollar paintings that can be faked why not daggers.Since I have been on this site a short time I have seen some very scary daggers.Its all in the value of the items.With computer controlled machining,lazer etching.How hard is it to make an inscription on a dagger blade.1st you draw it out on paper,then the blade,then you do a skim cut like lets say .005 so you can remove it if its not right,then cut it to the exact depth of the obverse motto and presto changeo a $15000.00 Rohm dagger.Think about it Hitler had about 5000 people killed in the SA on the night of the long knifes.So a SS man is going to not obey an order 1.He does not want to scratch up his shiney new dagger I'm sure HH will understand.2.It looks so cool I hate to mess it up.3.In the future these unground Rohms will be worth alot of money.What I'm saying is there is probably 6 real ones.I am not even talking about the 80K SS Honor dagger.Lets see Helmut we can make a PORSCHE witk 57.000.00 parts and sell it for $75.000.00 0r a SS Honor dagger with 12 and sell it for $75.000.00 I wonder which one would be harder.BUYER BEWARE.IMO.

I do not think fakers bother with low value items, they may embelish an item with a low end cost as Dave said by adding a unit number or personalise an item to add a few pounds to the price. I have been advised to read as many of the authored books as possible and I pass this advice on when I can. The handling and inspecting of items at shows is also a good method of helping to identify a copy. All reputable dealers will give you a guarantee and a period of time to inspect an item. I use that time to check against items in my collection, post queries on these forums and seek informed opinions.

I have been bitten a few times but only through stepping outside my knowledge area. I am going to catalogue groupings of my collection and take high quality scans, store these on a laptop and when I go shopping I have a ready reference to hand. There are a lot of collectors out there always moving stock around and upgrading IMO that is a safe area to start and build your own collection.

Regards

Gentlemen,

The higher the prices, the more fakers are attracted to the hobby/business and the better the copies become. It's just simple economics: demand and supply!

In my opinion, an expensive, high-end item should always be traced to where it came from untill the war times! The more dealers in the chain of provenance... the more attention should be paid! Display of the piece in a known reference book is no garantee of authenticity, only a good sign, in my opinion.

We are lucky that there are some "safer" area's in the hobby though: simple SA's for instance. It takes the faker the same effort (or costs) to copy an SA or an SS enlisted man's dagger, so of course he chooses to copy the SS dagger, which brings in 3 to 4 times more money. Personaly I believe that today, perfect copies of SS daggers are produced.

Another example is the HJ leader dagger, I believe this very rare dagger is also perfectly copied at this moment. If you want to, you can easily buy 10 pieces of this "super rare" dagger today, they are available on the market, though you rarely hear of a collector who wishes to sell his example of this dagger...

Try to find in one day 10 very nice conditioned simple HJ knifes (of wich millions were made!)... you will have a very hard time, even if you are willing to pay top dollar prices! Why is this? Because, so far no perfect copy of the HJ knife exist...

Just my opinion.

Best regards,

Herman

One dagger that I have seen in great shape alot of times is the chained NSKK,not to many beaters.The rarer the dagger the better shape they are in.I concur

Agree with Dave

You guys are making this repro thing way too easy. Just think, if it is as easy as you say it is, why did Rex Reddick have sooo much trouble finding blade manufacturers in Germany to reproduce the blades he sold to the collecting community and why aren't they perfect, non-detectable??
The answer is: It ain't that easy. This is especially true when the machines producing the blades and the craftmen producing the blades can't make the final product as good or as close as the ones who did it 75 years ago.
With damascus or on rare presentation items, its worse, so don't tell me that it is being done all the time and it isn't hard.
If it was true, there would be hundreds of rare items offered every day. It just doesn't happen. Period.
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

There are hundreds of rare items offered every day.The whole dagger does not need to be made ,just embellish the blade a bit.Fakes abound in this hobby and everybody knows it.Fakes are made by Producing,embellishing, fantasy,parts,restored,inscribed.There are two or three fake rare daggers on this site everyday

I totaly agree Zorro, hundreds of rare items CAN be bought via the web. And MUCH MORE via the shows all over the world...

Example, last weekend during a local, monthly show in Belgium, if I wanted, I could buy: a SA full R�hm, a SS Himmler, a DLV 55 cm, a Postschutz (everywhere this rare specimen is offered lately...) and 3 (yes, three!) HJ high leader's. I am talking qualitative made items here, not copies like honor SS that even a child can spot! Problem with this rare birds: you do not see them often, so how to compare?

In my opinion the worst are the dedicated pieces: full (and even partial) R�hm SA or SS and SS Himmlers. You add a simple, well made and correctly positioned etch to an original dagger and... oops! You earned several thousands of dollars easy money!

How much SS Himmlers were made? 200 was the number everyone agreed on for several decades, 200 is the number that is written in all the major references... AND the SS man's number should be written in the guards!
Now, since a few years, some people in the business are saying that "much more were offered by Himmler"... of course... MUCH MORE ARE BEING SOLD as SS Himmler! AND without the SS number in the guards...

These are just the thoughts of a happy but realistic collector.

Best greetings,

Herman

Forgot to mention this: at this particular show in Belgium last weekend, only 1 decent conditioned HJ knife was offered, which I have bought of course...

Best regards,

Herman

Himmler and Rohm daggers are the worst,just all over the place and always in just great shape.Himmler and Rohm dagger that are fully ground without a trace of inscription are just ruined daggers. IMO.

Herr Mann,

My best information is that:

- The SS ordered the men who were given Rohm (not Himmler) dedication daggers to put their SS numbers on those daggers. Most people think the number of those daggers issued was 9900. A few disagree with that number.

- Early reference books put the number of Himmler dedication daggers at 200. Whether that was the actual initial order or one of those facts that appeared out of nowhere and got repeated, no one knows. I can tell you that the dealers and collectors that I know think the number of Himmler daggers was significantly higher. The guesses run from 2000 to 5000. Unissued Himmlers were found and brought home by GIs in their original bags. See pages 100 & 101 of Tom Wittmann's book.

- I have never seen a Himmler with a serial number. Some guys may have added their, but it was not an SS order as was the case with the Rohm daggers.

Thank you Dave,
for giving your valuable input on this "hot" topic.

I have a French reference book that says the Himmler daggers got the SS numbers... I'll look it up. The book could be wrong, I don't question your expertise on this matter.

But the 200 Himmlers (that most books referring to until the 80'ies) becoming... UP TO 5000! That puts a big questionmarck about when those 4800 additional dedications were produced, don't you think?

And also, my remark about the SS numbers remains valid, but for the SS R�hm's: I experience that most of the SS R�hm daggers (especially full R�hms) that are being sold today have no SS number in the guards...

Zorro,
The Rohm's that I trust to collect are the (mostly fully ground) examples, that still bear the special R�hm makersmarks: smaller marks (like Eickhorn or Klaas) or the normal marks that were positioned closer to the guards (like Pack, Haenel and others) in order to make place for the dedication, they can not be questioned of being a R�hm, in my opinion. The ones I just described are becomming rare birds, as most of the R�hms that are sold today bear the normal makersmarck almost touching the dedication... they are considered correct...

Best regards,

Herman

Dave,

The French book I am referring to is "Les dagues du IIIe Reich" by Charles Mermet and Jean Marfault, dated 1981, 2nd edition "Reviewed and corrected".

It says, (I translate): "Following the purge of Juin 30th 1934, the Reichsf�rer SS decided on 3rd July to reward and hand over himself 200 daggers to the brave and loyal SS men... not a single additional dagger of this type was rewarded afterwards...". The book also states "...in theory, the guard had to be market with the SS adhesion number of the rewarded SS man..."

You are correct that, concerning the R�hm daggers, there was an official order (of April 12th 1934) that the guards of the daggers had to be engraved with the SS adhesion number.

If I remenber well, the Angolia and the Johnson reference books say the same thing about the 200 Himmler daggers... So why would we, 25 years later, start to question the research previously done by these men? The bibliography of the book I refer to is quite impressive. These early researchers had the possibility to interview the people "who were there" and "to whom the daggers were rewarded", France borders to Germany as you know!

So why would we, 25 years later, start to believe that 5000 of these daggers were rewarded?

Is there another reason than: "we experience that too many daggers are being sold as Himmlers" and that "the ones who got them are now gone, so they will not correct us by telling that they were only 200 to get this dagger?"

Would be very interesting if more members would share their opinion on this.

Best greetings,

Herman

Herr Mann,

I have that book myself and I speak and read French very well. Like ALL reference books, there are some errors.

All I can conclude is that the authors repeated what was printed in earlier reference books about there being only 200 Himmler dedication daggers made. I notice on page 49, they repeat another old (and false) story about the SS crossguards being stamped with Roman numerals from I to XIII.

As for Himmler dedication daggers being stamped with the man's SS number, I have never seen or heard one with a number ..... but who knows?

Have you seen one ?

As for the number 200, no one knows where it came from, but most people thought it was true up until about 25-30 years ago. I think that it was the big militaria shows like MAX and SOS that got large groups of dealers/collectors together and they talked about stuff like the 200 Himmlers. The guys that I have talked to said it gradually dawned on them that there had to be more than 200 daggers. The reason was that they had see in previous years a lot of them. Too many for there to have been only 200 made.

They also concluded that the daggers were given as presents by Himmler for some time after 1934. This was because they had been found, unissued, with the bag specially marked which indicates a stock item.

Dave

Dave,

And what about all this SS R�hms without a number?

Best greetings,

Herman

PS: C'est excellent si tu parles le Fran�ais, ce qu'il est assez rare pour un Americain! Tous mes compliments!

Great thread guys! This is just one reason I`ve stayed away from higher end daggers and concentrated on army swords.
For what it would cost to fake a Lionhead,it just aint worth it, although the Chinese are getting somewhat close and THAT`S VERY SCARY!!!!
A great condition Army or Luft is just as pleasing to me as a Rad officer or Teno.
See you`all at the MAX!!

I would say that about one in three of the Rohm daggers I have seen had the serial numbers on the crossguards.

If my information is correct, Rohm signed an order for the dedicated daggers 3 February 1934 for men who had been in the SA & SS since 31 December 1931. On 20 February 1934 he signed an additional order for daggers for transferees from the HJ to the SA/SS.

Himmler signed an order on 12 April 1934 stipulating that all SS men to get the dagger must have a certificate or Urkunde. That same order said serial numbers must be added to the daggers on the reverse lower crossguard.

That was mid-April and the daggers cannot have yet been issued. Remember that Solingen was producing normal SA/SS daggers for huge numbers of people. As the Urkunde were filled out for each man and the daggers were issued, it would have dragged on in time. Probably through April, May, June and even (?)later. Rohm was killed at the start of July and on 4 July 1943, SS men were ordered to have the inscription ground off. Most were ground.

A lot happened in a short time. Did a fully ground dagger count as a Rohm and still need a serial number ?? Besides, Rohm was dead, the SA was gutted of political power. Obviously the serial number order was not enforced for long.

Dave

I was in France 1949-53 (6 to 10 years old) and attended the Ecole Tuck-Stell in Rueil - Malmaison. I also lived in Paris 1978-81 and Geneva 1981-84.

Awhile back the Himmler dagger was the only carbon copy dagger ie they where identical to another Himmler,but now I see where they can have a different type of trademark.How did that get overlooked ?

These are the daggers that I have found to be easier to reproduce and somewhat harder to distinquish, not impossible just harder. Railway leaders, Government officials, Diplomatic dagger, teno leaders, Water customs, Customs officials and Hitler Youth leaders dagger. Forestry and Hunting Cutlasses and Shooting association are also encountered. Many post war daggers are often played with. I have only seen a handful of Fireaxes that were authentic period Third Reich produced. The same companies made the axes many years after the war. I even recall seeing what I believed to be a post war axe offerred by a reputable member.cheers, Ryan

I agree with Ron--you guys are pushing the panic button. It's getting harder- but when it comes to a "standard" dagger -there are NO perfect fakes. There are always a number of red flags. I have never seen any fake standard daggers that I even considered to be close to perfect. If you don't know what the red flags are-you are in big trouble and all of them are not listed in the books. But-if you get out there and make contacts you will find out what they are. If you think you are going to do that in a couple of years-you are 100% WRONG. There are NO perfect fake Himmlers-not yet anyway. 200 was the initial number awarded after the night of the long knives. Himmlers with both TM's have been around forever. They used to be $125.00-not worth a quality faking-even then --and even then you could not find the proper daggers to use. What you new guys need to do is to find a really experienced collector to help you learn.If you are really serious this is what you must do. All experienced collectors have volumes of unpublished information that most will share with someone who is really interested in learning--but not with the novice two year know it all. Try to make those contacts when you go to shows instead of trying to be the champion beer drinker. Ask questions instead of forming and voiceing too many opinions. You can't get it all from books--and MANY books are out of date and contain mistakes that have been reprinted time and time again.
Try this-as I have recommended--and you will be surprised what you can learn in a short time.

Houston is right on the money. Go to the shows and see who is talking with who. Who knows which of the big time dealers is an expert in which dagger and which field. You can't be a master in every line in the TR collectibles, so find out who the big time dealers and collectors go to for information and become their best friend. Some of them won't share information with anyone until they know them for a long time. Its just part of the game.
I noticed that someone is mentioning HJ Leader's Daggers as one of the main ones to be reproduced. Once you have examined several known originals, the HJ Leader is one of the ones you can spot a fake one of a mile away. There are only a couple of original manufacturers and the variations are rather limited, so its easy to learn all you need to know about this dagger in a couple of sessions.
2nd Rails are another one that can be mastered in a short time IF you have enough originals to compare and handle. Once you have seen a few, it is an easy one to spot, but you need to look at a lot of them to get "the feel".
Yes, some dealers will sell a fake one now and then, but I wonder if they know or are just in it for the money.
As far as Himmler's go, I have found MORE THAN A HANDFUL DIRECTLY FROM THE VETERAN. One sold at an estate auction in Burlington, Iowa, this past weekend and drew quite a crowd and went for $6500.00, a buy. I had to miss the auction due to my mother's hospitalization, but one of the Iowa boys got a real deal.
I personaly believe that there were 9,900 issued to replace the Rohm SS Dagger and save face for Himmler. Houston is correct about the first 200 going to SS participants in the Rohm putsch, but later Himmler gave them out to the SS men who had joined before March of 1933 just as the SA men who received the Rohm inscription dagger.
I have developed this theory by doing research on the SS Rohms that were numbered and when the men appeared on the SS membership list and the fact that there are just too many Himmler's in veterans hands to have been limited to 200.
Dr. Distlehorst interviewed an SS Col. in the 1970s in Germany who told him that this was the case. Another reason that most of the Himmler's are mint is that the men already had an SS dagger from Rohm to wear, so the Himmler dagger was put back.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Wow, now there are already 10000 SS Himmlers!

Should not the price drastically drop in that case?

But let's assume for a while that there are "10000 real Himmlers!", still I do not understand why they are for sale all of the time... many dealers have one in their offer at the moment! If I want to, I can easily buy 5 pieces today!

But... I collect SA's and I try to find the rare ones: the 10's, 9's and 8's of Mike McAlvanah's SA rarety list. I am talking about 50 or 100 different, rare producers who all made, let's say a few hundred daggers. So in total more than 10000 rare SA daggers were made! Anyway more than Himmlers...How much of those rare SA daggers can I buy today? ...NOT A SINGLE DAGGER!

I also want to buy HJ knifes by rare makers, see Russ's list. A wild guess makes me think that 50000 of the millions made must be rare... YOU WILL NOT FIND A SINGLE RARE KNIFE FOR SALE!

Want a Himmler? No problem, any time!

SS Full R�hms? Let's assume that 10% (which is a lot) of the SS men kept the dedication intact on their dagger, so only about 990 of these daggers might ever have existed... You want to buy one today? No problem!

Very recently, one of the members bought an SS full R�hm and when he shared it on the forum... Everyone kept silent, not a single congratuation..., the guy just had spent a small fortune... In my opinion, this is very sad and puts the future of the hobby in danger...

You want a SA Feldherhalle? Most rare dagger, only 50 were ever made! Maybe the researchers were wrong and it is 500? You can buy one today, no problem!
I remember Adam Kirchen's post in March: "...so many Feldhernhalles were for sale at the SOS!..."

I do appreciate Ron's remark: "Yes, some dealers will sell a fake one now and then...", that is an opening in the discussion...

Best greetings,

Herman

Top level fakes are more present that most collectors would like to believe. I met up with a private dealer from Europe over a year ago who represented a manufacturing jeweller/engraver based in CZ. Their core business was the manufacture of replica medals mostly. He told me that they had begun moving away from medals as collectors had become too astute in detecting their repros, and had concentrated on TR Daggers. 4 SS and 1 SA Full Rohm were shown to me, included was a Himmler. He proudly professed that these were not copies, but rather enhancements to standard daggers, mostly converted from SA daggers, so they were in fact original and merely modified to SS or Rohm, so 100% authentic and legit in his mind. He explained the blades were sometimes completely reground and the entire blade re-etched, other times inscriptions were added to an existing blade. They had the facility to produce new ebony grips where required as well.

Make no mistake, these were excellent and not cheap, between $800-$2500. The only errors I could detect were anomalies in the makers marks of some of them, and the grips on some were just too good and evenly "aged". They claim to be using period equipment and templates for the regrind and re-etch, then depending on the order, items are sold from near mint to well aged, including even Ground Rohm SA and SS. They were also well aware of the reputation of fakes out of Europe and prefer to trade through "brokers" mostly in the US. As a sales tip he suggested finding old folks to pass them off as War Booty or slip them into Estate Sales. He claimed to be selling around 20 a month worldwide, and some of their product is even found on dealer sites. It was this encounter that ruined it for me made me re-evaluate this hobby and I find myself questioning almost every piece I see, from wherever it comes.

Red

RED,
Wow, THAT is SCARY
Thanks for this info, this is the first time I have heard anyone report on first hand knowledge of a high quality TR Dagger reproduction business.
One thing I would REALLY love, would be a copy of their customer list. I wonder who they have sold to these repros to... I wonder if we (collectors) would recognize any of the names...

Red,

That is an honest and very valuable confession you just made!

Thank you very much for sharing this experience with us!

Best regards,

Herman

Herr Mann et all, I guess its time for all the inexperienced and new collectors to leave the hobby! No place for the faint of heart! Just give up and admit that you can't be totally sure of yourself and get out while its safe and you haven't been exposed to the European experts in quest of the Euro!
No other hobby has fakes, you know, like coins, the art world, gun collecting, etc.. So let's start collecing something safe like can tabs or some other interesting venue. Surely there are shows and the interest is just as great as it is in militaria? On to new interests!!
I know they can't fool me in those areas, I'm just too good at spotting them fake can tabs since I went to school on them and can spot the fakes by the angle of the pull! I'll tell the rest of the collectors so they don't have to worry about fakes in this hobby!
This makes about as much sense as the rest of this thread.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Come on Ron, you know better than that... this thread is becomming more and more interesting...AND REALISTIC!

You don't need decades in this hobby to understand how it works, all you need is common sense.

Can you explain why I cannot buy a single rare SA or HJ, but tons of super rare pieces at high prices? Can you challenge the reason behind the above numbers I presented?

Of course it happens everywhere as you stated above, so we should just shut up and keep on spending our money on it? I know that some would prefer that...

Talking about "can tabs", this brings me to "Tags and bags" for daggers of course: every serious collector owns one now: a "tagged" or a "bagged" or even both dagger! A simple paper bag or tag doubles the price of the dagger, just like that! Easy to fabricate (there is plenty of period paper in supply) and costing... nothing!

If you don't have one yet, don't worry, they will "find" one for you, "a unique, lifetime opportunity to purchase such a rarity"... Does that sounds familiar to some of us?

Don't worry about me, I love this hobby too much, I will never leave! And I now exactly what and why I collect it!

But it sometimes breaks my hart when I see how honest collectors "invest" their hard earned dollars in those "super rare pieces" that you can buy everywhere!

Best greetings,

Herman

Hermannnn, I DO NOT own a tag and bag dagger. All of these that I have bought DIRECTLY FROM VETERANS were RZM and I don't like or collect RZM late war pieces, so I have sold them. If you are into that, fine, but not for me.
Next, I have ran into veterans with a lot of these leftovers. One veteran in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, had 15 RZM Schlottehofer SAs in mint, unissued condition with tags, so don't tell me that they are rare or made up. I have bought them and have had them, but who cares, not me.
He got them directly out of a store in Germany and his is not the only story of this type of dagger find by a veteran. Maybe you haven't had the direct buy experience??
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

What do I care ? I am never going to pay $15,000,00 for a knife, period.

As far as common daggers: SAs and HJs are concerned. I don't have time to list them. I have around 50 SAs forsale right now and around 10 HJs. I intend to take them to the MAX. It is not cost effective for me to list these common items when I can use the same time and space to list Rohms, Himmlers and engraved Lufts with a far better return. I am too busy with Tom buying items. We made four great hits in the last month (you saw some of the SS items on this site), so why waste my time with the common items when I can move it easily at the show??
So, for dealers selling and listing, the rarer items and the higher dollars is what attracts the attention and people will contact you and ask about the more common items or specific manufacturers. Its just a matter of time and demand.
Now SAs and HJs are not hard to sell. Supply is good and demand is high, but you have to go and find it. It doesn't come to you.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron, we are not targeting you in person here with all our questions and remarks about high-end fakes. Actually, I find it very "sportive" and courageous of you that you dare to discuss this topic on the forum with us. And I would like to hear some mature comments (not just making fun about or denying it) from the other "GDC connected" dealers who sell more very expensive "super rare items"... but I am afraid we won't hear from them at all...

Just want to add this about the "bags and tags story": in 1942 the Germans stopped producing dress daggers, because of problems with supply and priority of raw materials, we all know that as a fact. But then 3 years later, 1945 end of the war, the warehouses were still loaded with bagged and tagged daggers that got liberated by de GI's? When I look at the today market, I get the impression that the �liberating� of warehouses is taking place at this very moment�

The testimonial of Redbaron also shows us that when a 70 year old veteran shows up with a Himmler in a bag, it does not necessary means that he got nor the dagger, nor the bag, 50 years ago in Germany... It is possible that we are dealing with very assertive, 70-years young ex-soldier.

Best greetings,

Herman

Ron, with respect, its not at all about being inexperienced or wishing to throw in the towel on collecting because there happens to be obstacles. Even the most seasoned collectors make misjudgements and get caught with repros from time to time. The issue at hand is are the fakers getting better, yes they are... should the newbies give up... no. Also, seldom do new collectors jump straight into a SS, let alone a Rohm or Himmler.

The value of a forum like this goes even beyond textbooks and into guidance and advice from experienced collectors, and those that share their own insights from pieces they own or have handled themselves. The TR helmet and medal guys are ahead of us I think, as they have been plagued by sophisticated reproductions and aged enhancements for longer, and by highly proficient fraudsters. They draw on each others observations and expertise to fill the gap and permanently expose some of the fakes, and bring to the fore the new ones as they are discovered. Yes this happens here, but our mutual learnings will become more valuable in the long run...

Fakes will get better still, and while the ones I have seen were not fakes, rather extreme "enhancements" they are close to indistinguishable as they are real, tang markings, period nuances and all.. I have observed some of the errors the fakers make and they are minor, often ignored as etch anomalies, these are not in the league of the Spanish copies, Reddick or even the famed Attwood pieces.

With so many top-end fakes entering this hobby, its enough to concern me and put a little more emphasis on the experience, reputation and ethics of any seller I buy from today for the "exotic" stuff. I for one buy into Herr Mann's observations, it is interesting just how many fine Rohms and Himmlers are about these days, I wish there were so many about when I started collecting...

JMHO, Red

200 Himmlers????

With over 5000 members on GDC....would those who own Himmlers...identify themselves.....Out of 5000 we should have quite a FEW.....MAYBE OVER 200??????.........

I would just add this--You can buy just about ANY rare SA or HJ knife--It's just a matter of how much you want to pay. Just advertise for one offering a significant premium price. They probably will appear quite rapidly depending on THE PRICE. Oh--and also grinding down an SA to change it to an SS Himmler??? HMM --I think the blade might just be a little tooooo thin to pass inspection by most.

You are completely right, Houston! That is exactly what I mean!

You have to PULL to get to the rarer HJ and SA's: by offering a higher price than usual. You know, with this trick, you can buy almost everything is this world...

The Himmlers, the full R�hms and all the other "super rare stuff" is pushed towards the collectors, from all the possible directions... For this stuff you don't need to offer a higher price than usual, you can even negociate and get a "bargain"... If those items were really rare, collectors would have to use the always working "trick" of offering more extra cash...but that is not necessary to get those "super rare daggers", as I said you can buy them all in one day!

OK, you want an example of this? At the SOS, this year 2006, a Feldhernhalle was offered at 49k US$... serious money, but don't forget, 1 out of 50 ever made all the books tell us so far ! Do you know for how much I could have bought it at the third day of the show? 35k $, that is -14k or 30% off! No touch negotiation was needed, you just had to ask "What is your best price on this dagger?" Like all the other Feldhernhalle daggers on the show, the piece was not sold of course... Doesn't that says it all?
To me it does!

Try to get that kind of reduction (30% off) on a simple, not even rare but 100% authentic HJ or SA... you will have a touch discussion with the almost desperate dealer/seller...

Best greetings,

Herman

Hi I agree with Ron that the daggers that I mentioned can be distinquished from the fakes with some experience, hands on exposure and research. I mention them only because in my 24 years of collecting daggers they were the most prolific reproductions that I encountered, other than the standard army daggers. Once you recognized the swirl pattern in the fake Heer scabbards you were well on your way. Now German reproduction medals, that is a science. I defy anyone to cast aside these fakes so easily. I have seen first hand many a top notch collector and dealer fooled by KCs, SS long service and German Crosses. Some of the very high end fakes are even made with precise dimensions. Not impossible to detect a fake but perhaps more difficult than daggers in some areas.When I need to study dimensions to a micro mm and study precise composition the hobby just doesn't feel as fun somehow. cheers, Ryan

Lou,

That is an excellent idea!
And if all the members with Himmler's and full R�hm SS's would (pretend to) offer these daggers for sale, the prices would drop significantly, and the fakers would probably stop producing copies of them... Problem solved!

Some more questions for the members with guts :

As this community seems to have agreed on a number of real Himmlers in the thousands... up to 9900 with the "PAY FOR 1, GET 2 !" theory of Ron (a free Himmler for every SS man who paid for or got a R�hm in 1934), are (as Zorro mentioned) the current prices for Himmlers not too high?

What if you take into account that there are at least 10X more Himmlers than full R�hm SS's?

Is the number of 200 Himmlers in all of the "old and mistaken" reference guides going to be corrected?

What is Wittmann's SS book (I do not have a copy) saying about production numbers of these 2 SS dedication daggers?

I hope to get some educative answers here.

Best greetings,

Herman