#72521
02/14/2007 11:26 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6
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OP
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6 |
Could anybody tell me anything about the well known fake KM dagger with the engrabed blade with eagle and swastika, battleship and Kiel monument? Do you know the date when these daggers were made, maker...? Is there any posibility that any dagger with this kind of blade does exist before 1945? Thank you very much in advance. Gregorio
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#72522
02/15/2007 08:58 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6
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OP
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6 |
Please, I need some information on this question. Thank you
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#72523
02/15/2007 01:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
Probably made in the 60's and later. Several TM"s were used. No examples have been observed that are believed to be original pre-1945. No evidence that I know of that any originals were ever made.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#72524
02/15/2007 01:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6
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OP
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6 |
Thank you very much. Best regards from Spain. Gregorio
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#72525
02/15/2007 02:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 556
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 556 |
I think if you search the forum that you will find a post on these daggers. If not mistaken I have read a post about the navy etched baldes with Kiel monument, and if I remmember well, then this Kiel monument is build late at war's end and no daggers where made during the war. So all etched navy's with Kiel monument are post war. Why I do not know? Search the forum on etched navy or something like that.
"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
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#72526
02/15/2007 08:27 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 257
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 257 |
The Laboe (Kiel) Naval Memorial was started in 1927 and completed in 1936. Why wouldn't this unique structure (which the Kreigsmarine took great pride in) be incorporated into Third Reich blade designs?
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#72528
03/08/2007 09:05 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2 |
GDC silver member #393
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#72529
03/08/2007 09:06 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2 |
GDC silver member #393
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#72530
03/08/2007 09:08 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2 |
GDC silver member #393
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#72531
03/08/2007 09:09 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2 |
GDC silver member #393
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#72532
03/13/2007 01:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6
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OP
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6 |
This kind of blade is considered as fake by the most prestigious searchers and collectors. This daggers are very well done in all their parts but with these strange engraved drawings. According to searchers, there are not evidences of this blades before 1945. I want not these in my collection.
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#72533
03/14/2007 03:47 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 811 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 811 Likes: 1 |
Well, using Houston's line of no evidence that the Keil Navy pieces were ever made in the Third Reich period, EXACTLY what evidence is there that the Klaas U-9 WERE produced. I never saw the U-9 etch in their catalog.
Wayne
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#72534
03/14/2007 04:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5 |
One true give away on the Clemen & Jung Navy is the fact that the TM is etched instead of stamped, a true way to tell a post war blade on this dagger's maker. Ron Weinand Weinand Militaria
MAX CHARTER MEMBER
LIFE MEMBER OVMS
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#72535
03/14/2007 09:20 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
Yes, we should let this poor seller know that he has a repro. I'm sure he will appreciate our help. -wagner-
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#72536
03/14/2007 07:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 811 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 811 Likes: 1 |
Ron, Was that true of the Armys and Luft reproductions too?
Von Ryan
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#72537
03/14/2007 09:01 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2 |
Hi Ron, i agree the dagger itself is no good and the makers mark is bad. But is the actual etch, not necessarily on this dagger, period?
GDC silver member #393
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#72538
03/15/2007 01:38 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 257
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 257 |
Wayne, a very good point indeed regarding the U9. Since it doesn't appear in a catalog, it doesn't exist. Neither does the RAD "fat man". Not everything in the Third Reich was "by the book".
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#72539
03/15/2007 01:52 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5 |
No. the etch pattern is no good either.
MAX CHARTER MEMBER
LIFE MEMBER OVMS
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#72540
03/15/2007 03:39 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 757
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 757 |
So Ron, what you are saying is that Brian's C&J navy is a $5000 fake? Oh wait a minute, he is stating that the TM is stamped. It doesn't look stamped.
"Endeavor to Persevere"
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#72541
03/15/2007 05:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,917 Likes: 5 |
Brian who? Ron Weinandd Weinand Militaria
MAX CHARTER MEMBER
LIFE MEMBER OVMS
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#72542
03/15/2007 05:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 757
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 757 |
Ron, I thought you knew Brian Maederer. He is the owner of militarycollectiblesinc.com as far as I know.
"Endeavor to Persevere"
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#72543
03/15/2007 06:29 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,361
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,361 |
Manfred would have spotted this junk in a New York minute.......AND said so......... Denny
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#72544
03/15/2007 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 757
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 757 |
"Endeavor to Persevere"
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#72545
03/16/2007 03:00 AM
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,627
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,627 |
Denny -
Nice to see you posting again .... After all the members we're losing .... We need a few of the old pros back -
Gordon
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#72546
03/16/2007 11:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
That's right Floridaguyz!
You can't replace an old pro with a thousand newbee's.
-wagner-
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#72547
03/17/2007 03:25 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,361
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,361 |
Thanks gentlemen, but I have no plans on returning and having to endure more of this xhiite..... My apologies if I offend any of the good guys. Denny
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#72548
03/18/2007 07:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,480
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,480 |
Quote from listing on Brian Maederer site. "Been looked at by Tom Wittmann and authenticated that it is a period done "
Really?
War is when your government tells you who the enemy is. Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
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#72549
03/18/2007 01:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,079
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,079 |
I have always suspected the grip wire that looks like the photos of the C&J Navy from the web site. It seems to have many more twists per inch than Navys that I trust as being pre 1945.
"Mountain Dew or Crab Juice?" Homer "God that stuff is awful. I'll have a Crab Juice!" The Simpsons
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#72550
03/18/2007 04:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 191
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 191 |
this same dagger is in discussion on another forum also,due to the kiel tower and the maker mark. i have just contacted clemen and jung who state that the maker mark within an oval was never used during the period .....so that sort of blows the trademark.despite all the large dealers having examples,and also examples in reference works as late war ,which i must admit i thought for a time was correct but not now. as for the monument,theres some nice daggers with this etch,some with blue on guilt panels,but im affraid all ive seen shown are wrong 80`s blades.
the etches with the monument,battleships,planes and uboats were for the navy swords,and only a couple of makers offered this. not for the daggers except the U9`s
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#72551
03/23/2007 06:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,023 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,023 Likes: 1 |
Very interesting post. Mustang my hat is off to you sir going the extra step to contact C&J. If you look at pgs 308 and 309 of Wittmann's excellent Navy book you will see that he calls this mark period. I know that some do accept it, and some might have a hard time accepting it was not used in the period. Lastly, I am pretty sure that this etched trademark was used in the period on SA's. Did C&J say the mark was not used on Navy daggers or at all pre1945?
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#72552
03/23/2007 08:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 695
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 695 |
This is what make this hobby so fascinating, old statements, textbooks and rules sometimes changing from one day to another when new facts is brought to the light. Thanx for the research mustang, Sam,
"Honesty is the best policy"
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#72553
03/23/2007 09:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
Here's another example of the bogus C&J mark on a repro 2nd model etched Luft. I was under the impression that even a caveman could tell this! Jim
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#72554
03/29/2007 09:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 191
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 191 |
hi all, i asked C & J if their later war makers marks differed from the pre 44/45 daggers (non specific),whether it would be in an oval or just a crowned shield,they replied .... Hallo The marker marks during the years 1944/1945 was the crowned shield. But we haven't any kind of catalouges or more information, because the company was total destroyed in the world war 2. We hope we can help you with this information. Best regards Pleithner Clemen & Jung OHG Oberstraße 25 42655 Solingen now i see theres an alcoso with the kiel memmorial on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2301...6&fromMakeTrack=true non alcoso scabbord ,no pommel presumably in attempt to bluff ebay police. and THAT etch !!
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#72555
03/31/2007 01:47 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,200 Likes: 2 |
Great work mate, it is also good to see Brian has withdrawn the dagger from sale. I have been asked if it was my intention to attack Brian - that was certainly not my intention. I was interested in the etch pure and simple. If i have caused you any grief Brian then i do apologise. regards Tony
GDC silver member #393
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#72556
03/31/2007 10:08 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 191
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 191 |
thanks for your comments all,just seemed the logical thing to do was to ask as theyre still in business.i also was not trying to stir or attack at dealers or anyone,just trying to help on a subject that could help us all.
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#72557
04/01/2007 12:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 811
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 811 |
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#72558
04/04/2007 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 811
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 811 |
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#72559
07/03/2008 08:40 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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To keep this from disappearing
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,958 Likes: 29
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,958 Likes: 29 |
Hello I have brought this post back up Paul Hogle references Tom's excellent naval book as stating that the Clemen and Jung etched maker mark was used on period pre war kriegsmarine daggers. My question: Are C&J etched trademarked Kriegsmarine blades accepted as "post war" by the collecting community or, as Tom states does one have to judge the merits of the entire piece specific to originality. Are the post war???? thanks cheers and best Ryan
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 407 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 407 Likes: 1 |
Hi, well, neither would I believe an etched logo was made pre-1945, nor would I want to see a memorial to the fallen from the Great War on my dagger blade as an active naval officer. To the German perception, this is more of a tombstone. Seafarers are quite superstitious... Best; Flyingdutchman
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,126 Likes: 22
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,126 Likes: 22 |
I think some collectors believe the etched C&J logo was used pre-1945 although the majority believe they were assembled postwar using some period parts and in some cases postwar parts.
Several years ago I spoke with Tom Wittmann about this. He did feel that the etched logo daggers had to be judged on a case by case basis largely based on fit and finish consistent with 3R production. One thing also to keep in mind is the grip which should have a wooden core as the postwar grips did not.
A significant number of knowledgeable collectors have stated that these daggers are not period and that alone is enough of a caveat to a buyer. I did handle one maybe 5-6 years ago that could have convinced me it was period but all that means is period parts could have been used and fitted at the factory rather than decades later using whatever was available. They’re worth far less than a known period original either way due to the opinions out there.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,958 Likes: 29
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,958 Likes: 29 |
Hi I really appreciate the replies. I was offered two C&J naval daggers. One with the etched makers mark and the other with the dual stamping. Although I could find no fault with the quality of the etched maker mark I decided to purchase only the one and passed on the other.......I believe that regardless of pre or post war it would be virtually impossible to sell it at some point for the price offerred. Has anyone seen a period Robert Klass plain blade Kriegsmarine dagger offered for sae? thanks and regards, Ryan
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