#6863
02/24/2010 11:33 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Hi guys i have just received this dagger today and could do with some opinions on originality, I have to say it looks very good to me but i am no expert on these daggers also let me say that the condition of this dagger leaves alot to be desired! and i know some of you guys will say that this dagger wouldnt be for my collection, but i didnt pay alot of money for it so am therefor happy with it as long as it is an original example, i think it has alot of character and we all know how rare these full rohms are in any condition opinions welcomed regards Adam
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#6864
02/24/2010 11:43 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6865
02/24/2010 11:46 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6866
02/24/2010 11:49 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6867
02/24/2010 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6868
02/24/2010 11:56 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6869
02/24/2010 11:58 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6870
02/24/2010 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6871
02/24/2010 12:03 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6872
02/24/2010 12:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6873
02/24/2010 12:08 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6874
02/24/2010 12:10 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6875
02/24/2010 03:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 478 |
Hello, I don't like the inscription. Looks like it is re-writing in the best case.
Best, Lukas.
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#6876
02/24/2010 03:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026 |
It looks original .That being said look at the corrosion at the top of the blade. It is heavy but almost disappears where the inscription starts as if it were cleaned up and the inscription then applied.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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#6877
02/24/2010 07:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 635
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 635 |
Zorro has astutely pointed out the key flaw with the dagger's inscription
Urban B Martinez Jr
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#6878
02/24/2010 09:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Hi guys thanks for the input i can see what you are sayng about the inscription, i was told that this was 110% legit, i have just taken the dagger apart and the top of the tang where the tang meets the blade is quite rusty ,the xguards are marked HE which i beleive is correct.Also i was under the impression that SA daggers with the small eikhorn logo were all rohms so to me doesnt make much sense that this would have been a fully ground rohm then the insciption added i would have thought that if someone was going to fake one of these daggers they would have used a better example than this! any more opinions chaps cheers Adam
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#6879
02/24/2010 09:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Based on the photos, the logo appears to be properly placed and would be correct for a "Rohm." As well as I can tell, all components seem to comply with "Eickhorn" ones. If there is a problem with the blade, it would seem to be that a ground "Rohm" had the inscription re-applied, or the blade is a reproduction. The blade is extremely corroded near the guard, so I would suspect the blade is original. The blade does ot appear to be a "repro." The blade does show signs of being "cleaned up," probably with something abrasive, such as emery cloth or sandpaper. If done carefully, the inscription's crispness could have been preserved. It also may be that the etching has been darkened as part of the cleaning-up process.
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#6880
02/24/2010 10:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
thanks Grumpy when you say that the blade has been cleaned up are you refering to the grind marks on both sides of the blade where someone has tried to sharpen it? they actually havent done too bad of a job it is quite sharp! and from what i can see the motto on the front of the dagger looks to be the same darkness as the inscripion on the rear as it should thanks for the intrest regards Adam
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#6881
02/25/2010 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
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#6882
02/25/2010 08:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Yes, the grinding marks. It may be someone tried to clean up the rest of the blade to remove surface corrosion. Can't tell from the photos. You do see full and partial Rohm's with the original darkening in the etching. You also see them with no darkening left. This is true of all political daggers. Some seem to have never had darkening. Photos seldom represent what you can see in person. I just don't see any warning signs of fakery on this dagger. A look "in person" may tell a different story.
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#6883
02/25/2010 10:38 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
An Eickhorn Rohm dedication pattern is what I see and IMO it appears original. However clearer photos would be better received for other responses.
-serge-
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#6884
02/25/2010 11:03 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
thanks guys i will take some more pics tomorrow in the sunlight its almost midnight here and photos never seem to turn out properly when i use my flash! should i just take extra photos of the rohm dedication or are there any other parts of the dagger i should take some pics of? thanks for the intrest. Regards Adam
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#6885
02/25/2010 11:24 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 992
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 992 |
in the 8th photo ,just above the makers mark ,you can see the start of where the original inscription was ground off in 4th photos you can see the inscription appears to be on top of the grind marks ???
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#6886
02/26/2010 12:19 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Hi Nick i see what you are saying about the grind marks, these actually go through most of the name part of the dedication they are very light and dont seem to be deep enough to affect the dedication. I have just felt with a pin and the dedication is deeper into the blade than the grind mark, could this have happened when the dagger was sharpened and whoever sharpened it slipped and caught the dedication?I have noticed there are also grind marks all the way accross the motto on the front of the blade about 3-4mm wide but again they arent deep enough to have taken any of the motto away, when i feel with a pin there is a deffinate lip where the motto goes into the blade but where the grind marks are i can feel there isnt as much of a lip which is what i would expect. I will take some more pics of this in the morning,I gonna have to hit the sack now guys getting earache off the mrs!!! early start in the morning thanks for the intresst Adam
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#6887
02/26/2010 12:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
As a comparison, here is one on Gunbroker.com. The steel in these things is very hard. If somebody thought they were going to use a file to do the job, they quickly found out they had a tough job to do. The inscription seemed to hold up well to the grinding on this one, too.
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#6888
02/26/2010 09:32 AM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 82
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 82 |
Hi mate , Did you buy that From Brian "The Bag" Davies ?
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#6889
02/26/2010 10:14 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Hi Rob no i didnt get the dagger off Brian "the bag" Davies never heard of him mate, i will take some more pics of the grind marks shortly and post them ......cheers
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#6890
02/26/2010 11:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 942
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 942 |
Interesting thread Adam, I am no expert on these but I can see how it could well be legit and I know where you are coming from with the grind marks over the dedication. Good luck and hope it proves to be right from a fellow Leyther. Ian www.simplydaggers.co.uk
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#6891
02/26/2010 11:18 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026 |
Does the dagger have a number stamped on the bottom of the lower crossguard ?
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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#6892
02/26/2010 12:00 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Hi Ian thanks for the comment, i hope its right myself it certainly feels right! Zorro there is a number stamped on the bottom of the lower crossguard it looks like a number 1. i will post a pic of it in a mo when i post the other pics i only noticed this before, IMHO i think the grind marks where added after the dedication and motto was added and i think these pics will show that, i think that whoever sharpened the blade slipped off the wheel and caught the motto and dedication, as Grumpy said before solingen steel is very hard and sharpening it wouldnt have been easy.Will post pics now and see what you guys think. Cheers Adam
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#6893
02/26/2010 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6894
02/26/2010 12:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6895
02/26/2010 12:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6896
02/26/2010 12:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6897
02/26/2010 12:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6898
02/26/2010 12:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
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#6899
02/26/2010 12:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
If anyone wants additional pics just let me know cheers
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#6900
02/26/2010 12:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026 |
I think the dagger is an original looking at it online and not in person. The only thing that looks a little odd and it could be just the picture . It is the space between the legs (for lack of a better term) of the small r in Ernst and the large R in Rohm. The dagger has to many things right with it to be wrong. The good items get better (like your dagger) and the bad items get worse if you know what I mean.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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#6901
02/26/2010 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Hey Zorro i think it may be the angle i took the photo from. I have just done a search on here for full rohm eickhorns and compared a few and i cant see any differences that may just be my untrained eye though cheers Adam
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#6902
02/26/2010 07:18 PM
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 82
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 82 |
Hi mate IMO it looks legit, i had one in that condition an it was 100% real . But what do i know !
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#6903
02/27/2010 08:14 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Cheers Guys i am going to keep the dagger, as stated to many things right for it to be wrong,if i can get to any militaria shows in the NW of England this year i will bring it along to show, I have no idea when the next one is? Just one question though is there anything i can do about the pit marks near the eickhorn logo if i leave it as it is will it get any worse its already pretty bad! or will it stay as it is? I know the dagger is pretty beaten up but there arent alot of these daggers out there and would like to preserve this the best i can Cheers Guys Adam
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#6904
02/27/2010 10:50 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026 |
There is nothing that can be done for the pit marks.It will not get any worse if it is kept in an area of 55% humidity or less and oiled.I would not clean or polish the fittings on any part of the dagger,it helps show just how original the dagger is and that it all came thru time together. You can see how picky and doubtful collectors are,If you try to remove the pits it will just add to it.The grind marks on the dagger are historically correct it was not ground on for no reason.Leave it as it is it is a rare item.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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#6905
02/27/2010 11:24 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Thanks for the advise Zorro i will leave it as it is, I understand that cleaning any part of a dagger removes history of the item and an uncleaned item is much more sought after than one that has been cleaned. I just didnt want it to get any worse.Which kind of oil should i use? regards Adam
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#6906
02/27/2010 11:35 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026 |
A name brand gun oil.Some people do not like too use oil but I have never had any problems with it. If the humidity is kept below 55% oil is not even needed. No moisture no rust.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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#6907
02/27/2010 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
I have just ordered some tipton gun oil off ebay now i presume this will be ok, I think my house is starting to get slightly damp, so better safe than sorry.Thanks for all the advise chaps. Regards Adam
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#6908
02/27/2010 11:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 942
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 942 |
quote: Originally posted by Addyfie: I think my house is starting to get slightly damp, so better safe than sorry.Regards Adam
Thats LEIGH for Ya Besdt wishes Ian www.simplydaggers.co.uk
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#6909
02/27/2010 01:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Hey Ian thats Leigh for ya full of pound shops and pregnant teenagers.I will say something though being a Leyther it sure as hell beats being a pie eyter or a cow yedder! Im sure you catch my drift. all the best mate Adam
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#6910
02/27/2010 01:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 942
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#6911
02/28/2010 07:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286 |
Translation please?
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#6912
03/01/2010 11:12 AM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2 |
quote: Addyfie Hi Nick I see what your saying about the grind marks these actually go through most of the name part of the dedication they are very light and dont seem to be deep enough to affect the dedication.
Here is a question from way out in left field that pertains to the topic. When cleaning a blade with a motto or inscription, how easy is it to accidentally remove the blackening from these 2 areas. I have had this happen to me one time, and thats all it took! So would not the grinding process do the same even if it passed over it lightly? I am not trashing the dagger,, even though Grumpy has said that "photos seldom represent what you can see in person" But what I wrote is just a thought, what could happen in either process I mentioned. Best Larry
Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
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#6913
03/01/2010 12:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416
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OP
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 416 |
Hello Larry i think i get what you are saying, From what i remember from the topic here a while ago the mottos and dedications are a certain depth into the blade so in theory by running the dagger over a flat grinding wheel you would have to remove part of the blade before you even got into the inscription.If you look on the 3rd photo down on this page you can see where on the motto the grinder was ran all the way through the motto if you look where the grinder went, you can see the motto slightly lighter where it was just starting to be taken away (the d in land). I think that when the edges of the blade were ground whoever did the grinding, slipped off the wheel and caught the motto slightly but fortunately didnt do enough damage to remove it. This is all my opinion and if i am wrong someone please correct me as i am no expert and dont claim to be I hope this makes sense Regards Adam
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#6914
03/01/2010 06:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
There are many ways to grind or clean a dagger. Much of what results is the material(s) used, the pressure applied, the time taken, whether done manually or by machine, the angle of approach, etc. Because of the variables, results may vary widely. Etching may barely be affected or it may be well butchered. If the grinding is done flat to the blade, the etching will rarely be seriously affected, unless the grinding is lengthy and extensive. If there is factory darkening in the etching, it has a good chance of surviving if the grinding is kept flat to the blade and if a limited or half-hearted effort is made.
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