#66867
11/02/2007 11:43 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
What do you think about this hanger?
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66868
11/02/2007 11:44 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66869
11/02/2007 11:45 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66870
11/02/2007 11:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66871
11/02/2007 11:47 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66872
11/02/2007 11:48 AM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66873
11/02/2007 04:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,377
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,377 |
Looks OK to me. I have three of these on daggers and one mint unissued in cellophane wrapper. Two have the roller buckle and are unmarked. The others are RZM marked only on the nickel silver clip. Seiler (Yank in UK) 
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#66874
11/02/2007 07:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801 |
Iīm looking since a while for such a vertical SA hanger. Didnīt find one yet. Can anybody help and let me know how much will it probably cost me? PM is also fine for any orientation. Thanks!
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#66875
11/02/2007 09:08 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,093 Likes: 99
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,093 Likes: 99 |
I have never seen that mark before. Has anyone else seen it on an SA hanger or anywhere else ?
Dave
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#66876
11/03/2007 09:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878 |
i have seen this stamp on the back of k98 and parade frogs without numbers i might have one somewher will check ,is this not a kriegsmarine stamp mark
dippy
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#66877
11/03/2007 10:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878 |
quick look revealed these two
dippy
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#66878
11/03/2007 10:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878 |
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#66879
11/04/2007 07:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054 |
Ok, just to take the opposite view, could this be an aged reproduction? I know the early ones are non-standard, which actually makes them easier to reproduce. The stitching and the color of the leather looks unusual, and the openings for the cross-strap are too long. The rust is easy to reproduce, just leave it in my basement a couple of months! The leather looks unused, especially the cross-strap which usually deteriorates on SS verticals. Is the stamping supposed to be a Luftwaffe, Army, SA Marine acceptance mark?
I really don't know what to think, I just thought it would be helpful to discuss the possibilities.
John
John Merling vintagetime@yahoo.com
MAX Life member
OVMS Life member(Ohio Valley Military Society SOS)
OGCA Life member(Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc)
NRA Life member
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#66880
11/04/2007 10:33 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878 |
hi just a thought why dont we show all of our brown sa verticals and compare notes.i have dug mine out.
forever the diplomatt
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#66881
11/04/2007 10:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 878 |
most are ground rohms hence the condition
dippy
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#66882
11/04/2007 11:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054 |
Wow, what a nice spread Dippy!
Those bring up another observation. I've seen the big clips like those two in your group. This clip seems more like a later cheaper type...
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#66883
11/05/2007 12:00 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,093 Likes: 99
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,093 Likes: 99 |
Dippy, A camera with better focus would save all our eyes a bit  Jochen, The hanger looks OK, but these early ones need to be seen in person. The stamping is unusual. The larger holes for the upper strap do not scare me as the upper straps were replaced. From what I have seen, they got a lot more wear and tear. Dave
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#66884
11/05/2007 01:16 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054 |
Dave, does the leather upper strap in this particular hanger looked replaced to you? To me, the color, thickness, grain, age seem to be an exact match, indicating it's original to the hanger.
Just playing the Devils advocate here. I was at the OVMS show this weekend, and was shown known reproduction stuff aged to perfection. I guess if I was putting the item on the forum to decide whether to buy or not, I'd want more discussion. Granted, it's hard to decide anything from pictures, it's hard enough with the item in hand!
John
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#66885
11/05/2007 02:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
Hi guys, I've taken more pics here:
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66886
11/05/2007 02:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66887
11/05/2007 02:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66888
11/05/2007 02:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66889
11/05/2007 02:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66890
11/05/2007 02:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66891
11/05/2007 02:55 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66892
11/05/2007 02:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
8: the marking on each rivet
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66893
11/05/2007 03:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
Marking on the rivets:"st" on the top, "ck" on the bottom, and 2 "o" left and right.
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66894
11/05/2007 03:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66895
11/05/2007 03:04 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66896
11/05/2007 03:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66897
11/05/2007 03:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66898
11/05/2007 03:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
Thx guys for your opinions, which confort me: I think there are authentic hangers, which were certainly attached to a dagger; about the marking: the eagle is different as the usual eagles found on the WH frogs, and look similar with the 1st form party eagle, with pointed wings (the eagle turn his head to HIS left) 2/38: Is it the marking of the Sturm in the Standarte (as seen on tha SA collars and flags)or the hanger maker ..? I dont have idea about the rivet's marking... 
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66899
11/05/2007 04:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
It is a well established fact that there were no "official" SA vertical hangers of the SS style-- so any vertical hanger of the SS style with an official stamp such as this one is highly suspect.That is the big red flag here IMO. Also,the correct stamping IMO, if there was an approved version, would be the RZM stamping and all of these would be almost identical in style and construction.
Also, looking at this hanger, the leather looks much newer and sounder than it would be with such rusted parts suggesting IMO artificial ageing of the metal parts.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#66900
11/05/2007 06:26 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,093 Likes: 99
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,093 Likes: 99 |
I would not purchase this hanger myself. The reasons:
1. The rivets are well rusted but the steel clip is not and there is no sign of a repair.
2. I have not seen rivets with markings on them used in SA or SS hangers of this type.
3. I have seen SA vertical hanger with no marks, with RZM codes, and with D.R.G.M stamped on them, but not with an eagle stamp.
SA hangers are scarce and I have seen fewer of them than SS hangers, so I could be mistaken.
Dave
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#66901
11/05/2007 08:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808
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OP
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,808 |
May be yes, may be no ... I have the hangers in the hands (it's better than the best pics of the world, I have this chance): as I see them, this hangers were indisputably used and accorded to a dagger. My opinion (only mine) is there are good, until someone prove the opposite..; If it's a copy, I think many hangers of this type, or of this type of marking, would have soon seen on the collectors market... Houston is right... or not, Dave also... May be I am, or not...All roads are open guys! ready? Champagne for the first friend who prove me my mistake...or my truth!
"Wer sein eigener Lehrmeister sein will, hat einen Narren als Sch?ler" (He who wants to be his own master, has a idiot for a pupil)
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#66902
11/05/2007 08:48 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054 |
Unfortunately, there is no way to prove either way, unless there is a period photo of them in wear. All that will matter is when it comes time to sell, if no one believes they are real, then there will be no buyers for the hanger. If you like them, and are keeping them, then that works out for you. Good luck and Best wishes, John
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#66903
11/06/2007 07:30 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,615 Likes: 1 |
I don't think so...  1. Whenever you have clear evidence of corrosion as on the rivets and buckle but no apparent "distress" on the surrounding leather, in my experience, is a clear sign of artificial "ageing". 2. Buckle retaining pin: crude and straight. Threre is no bend on the tip to "mate" with the roller bar. 3. Evidence of artificial darkening of thread at snap. (Black dye line discoloring brown dye of hanger). 4. Leather retaining strap: Holes are too large and just don't look "right". 5. And finally there is clear evidence of black dye on all sides of the cut leather hanger to hide the tell-tale signs of "new" leather in a attempt to pass this "new" repro off as an aged original piece. Sorry, for the news but this just what I see along with the other points brought out by my collegues. Oh, the eagle stamp...They could have done without that touch but it just makes this whole "thing" scream fake even more. -Serge-
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#66904
11/06/2007 09:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 992
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 992 |
the hallow around the eagle proves its a fake stamping at least
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#66905
11/06/2007 09:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 992
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 992 |
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