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#64493 11/30/2006 05:55 PM
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I hope this turns into a good Discussion.
Why is it ok for DJ daggers to have alum rivits but its not ok for HJs to have alum rivits even if they were made by the same makers????Doesnt this seem kind of like a double standard.Like to here everyones opinions.

Thanks,Shawn

#64494 11/30/2006 06:12 PM
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Maybe a DJ knife was considered more of a toy for the kiddies to play with. It wouldn't require much structural integrity for that.

#64495 11/30/2006 06:52 PM
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Shawn,

I like your question of this topic. Wink

My answer to this is that I do not collect any DJ knifes. Their existance during the 3R area is not well documented and most of them look very suspicious to me...

Best greetings,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
#64496 11/30/2006 07:46 PM
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I think the answer is most probably because the hilts on these knives is aluminium. Manfred is quite right that these knives were intended for children & not really meant for any practical use.

I am sure that Herman is not alone in his opinion, however I am in no doubts about the originality of the one I have, it is undoubtedly original & came from a very advanced collection. The existance of the Nurnburg & Olympic examples is also evidence of their period production. These are offered from time to time by the most respected & knowledgeable dealers. Last time I looked T.W. had an unmarked example (as most were) on his site.


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
#64497 12/01/2006 04:34 AM
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Shawn, It’s seems to have been a while since the so-called “DJ” knives were last discussed. The point is well taken that “DJ” knives utilize aluminum rivets whereas HJ knives do not. And period manufacturer’s shipping bags for the HJ knives are labeled “Fahrtenmesser für die Hitler-Jugend und das Deutsche Jungvolk”. So where would a noticeably smaller knife fit in that was not RZM approved? But the larger problem IMO that the “enhanced” versions of the DJ knives have is the fact that some of them are demonstrably postwar altered. Which does not bode well for their identical “enhanced” cousins no matter where they come from. Regards, FP

#64498 12/01/2006 09:38 AM
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It is curious that the DJ knife is not RZM marked however this is less enigmatic when consulting the following extract of the initial law promulgating protection of Party uniforms.

The list is not entirely inclusive & whilst the SA & SS service daggers are included even the HJ knife is conspicuous by it`s absence.

I am not coversant with the German language & therfore this translation is a little rough but does illustrate that there were some exclusions.

As you can see from the extract below, if an item was not stamped then a tag with the ident was to be attached. As we know the later SA & SS daggers were etched & also had a tag riveted to the hilt.

I have not made an exhaustive search but have not as yet found a later document in the archive that I am consulting that gives additional mention to party uniforms.

The DJ knife may not have been included in the regulations at any time & if it was it may simply have been tagged?


"Proclamation in accordance with article 1 § 5 of the law against insidious attacks on state and a party and for the protection of the party uniforms from 20 December 1934 (Reichsgesetzbl. I P. 1269).
From 16 January 1935.


According to the article 1 & 5 of the law against insidious attacks on state & party & for the protection of the party uniforms from 20th december 1934 may be professionally manufactured party-official uniforms, uniform parts, fabrics, flags and badges of the NSDAP, their arrangements or it attached federations only with permission of the realm treasurer of the NSDAP, kept available, for sale-held or otherwise in circulation brought.

Due to the article 1§ 5 exp. 1 sentence 2 of the mentioned I determine the uniform parts and fabrics, for which it requires permission, in agreement with the realm minister of economics as follows:

I. Uniform parts

1. Clothing articles for the political organization of the NSDAP, for SA and SA navy, for the SS, for the National Socialist force driving corps, for the Hitler Youth with the German young people, the federation German girl and the Jungmädeln as well as for the German work front:

Long brown shirts, short service shirts with side hooks, Service trousers, Service skirts, Service coats, Caps of the political organization, SA service caps, SA field caps, Caps of the SA navy, SS-service caps (old and new form), Switching stage field caps, Caps of the National Socialist force driving corps, Caps of the Hitler Youth, Caps of the German young people, Caps of the federation German girl, Caps of the German work front.

2. Other uniform parts:A) Leibriemen with a Mindestbreite of 45 millimeters, Shoulder belt, Crash helmets for the National Socialist force driving corps, Ouple locks, Two-thorn buckles, Dienstdolche of the SA and SS, Travel measurer for the Hitler Youth and the German young people, Sleeve badge, Sleeve strip, Armlets, Pieces of shoulder, Leader cords, Schulterknöpfe for the Hitler Youth, Collar mirror, Schwalbennester, brown binders, Dead head badge of the SS, Badge for flier towers, Badge for pioneer towers, Badge for rider towers, Badge for marine towers, Badge for realigning towers, Badge for training storms, Motorist badge, Badge of rank for political ladder, Badge of rank for SA, SS and for leaders of the Hitler Youth and the German young people, Badge for dentists, Badge for administrative leaders, Badge for pharmacists, Badge for physicians, Badge for veterinarians, Metal buttons with the sovereignty badge of the NSDAP, Stone nut buttons for the German work front, Stone nut buttons for the Hitler Youth and the German young people, Drum eagle; b) the following articles of equipment, if they are intended for the NSDAP or their arrangements: Tornister, Tent courses, Bread bag, Canteens, Mess kits, Drinking cup, Spade, Spare parts to the aforementioned articles.

All uniform parts specified under 1 must visibly carry the protection character of the Reichszeugmeisterei of the NSDAP. If the protection character is not up-marked or is not stamped, an identification tag with the protection character is to be attached.
Permission for the use of the protection character of the Reichszeugmeisterei of the NSDAP is given to the manufacturers by the realm treasurer of the NSDAP with permission according to the article 1 & 5 exp. 1 sentence 1. of the law.

The identification tags with the protection character are to be referred of the Reichszeugmeisterei of the NSDAP in Munich.

Berlin, 16 January 1935.

The realm treasurer of the NSDAP and plenipotentiaries of the leader in all financial affairs of the NSDAP."

Everyone may have an opinion on this but until such time that there is conclusive proof to discount the DJ as a period piece I will continue to accept the opinion of those with infinately more experience than myself.


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
#64499 12/03/2006 02:07 AM
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There's that word "Never" again. Razz There were too many makers of the HJ knife over a period of several years to say that NONE of them had aluminum rivets.


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#64500 12/03/2006 03:38 AM
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Who said Never????I guess I missed that part.
Shawn

#64501 12/04/2006 05:30 PM
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Vaughan, Simply put: There are some limited exceptions, but the fact is that after a certain date political daggers to include HJ knives were permanently marked on their blades with RZM codes. And the use of paper tags for ID purposes really was referring to items like those made of cloth which could not be etched or stamped. With paper tags on hard goods being supplemental in nature.

Having myself on occasion been caught short using generalizations I understand Houston’s point of view regarding the use of the word “never”. Which can sometimes get you in trouble because many Third Reich artifacts sometimes seem to have a fair number of legitimate variants. However, I also think that it’s fair statement that the (so-called) “DJ” knives as a group seem to have aluminum rivets which is not seen as a group with the HJ knives. And for myself making a distinction between the “plain jane” knives. And those with fancy grips or embellished scabbards and/or glued or mechanically attached National Socialist insignia. Which brings us to the crux of the matter

While not common, I’ve seen period photographs of Hitler Youth members with what looked like ordinary hunting knives (but not the “DJ” knives). But instead of trying to prove that “DJ” knives (in all their manifestations) are or were not period Hitler Youth/NSDAP approved issue - which has resulted in some fairly long discussions in the past. I would like to see one of the knive’s proponents (or anyone) do the opposite. And provide a period photograph or photographs showing a “DJ” knife (plain or embellished) in use. Or a period sales catalog. Or a price list. Or any other kind of period documentation that could prove the point that the small hiking knives were worn by any of the Hitler Youth groups in any capacity. My point being that over a period of time I have seen a number of previously believed “facts” (opinions) fall by the side as the body of knowledge is expanded. Disproving some early held theories/opinions that tried to explain some misunderstood phenomena. Which (regrettably) on occasion sometimes included fakes. Regards, FP


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