#63305
06/03/2008 01:02 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25 |
Terry,
Sorry, I wouldn't have posted had I known you were in mid post(s). Really well done. Like Steve C. said, the shame of it is all the lost individual posts from others with pieces we may never see again. I feel sick thinking about it.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#63306
06/04/2008 07:48 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801 |
EXCELLENT !!!! AWESOME INFORMATION !!! Thank you for your efforts!
This is an edged weapon I�ve recently bought. It�s marked with BISMARCK. It looks like a short dress bayonet, but it�s missing the press stud at the pommel. The scabbard looks like to be from a trench knife. Any idea what it is or who has worn such an edged weapon?
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#63307
06/04/2008 11:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Is there a photo of the blade. It could be a trench knife or a miniature. What is the blade length and overall length.
TKissinger
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#63308
06/05/2008 05:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801 |
Here�s the Bismarck edged weapon between a short dress bayonet and a trench knife.
Blade length: 15 cm (5.9 inches) Overall length: 25.5 cm (10 inches)
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#63309
06/05/2008 05:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801 |
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#63310
06/05/2008 05:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801 |
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#63311
06/05/2008 06:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
I think its a trench knife. Most miniature bayonet scabbards would not have leather belt loops and scabbard runners. The bayonets were made of lesser quality materials. I think you have a very nice trench knife. I'm not sure if Bismarck is a TM or something else Will look in some books when I get home.
TKissinger
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#63312
06/06/2008 12:27 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
Bismarck = August M�ller KG, Solingen-Merscheid
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#63313
06/06/2008 01:26 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25 |
The scabbard is similar to the early HJ honor bayonets which were purportedly made from leftover stock of Imperial & Weimar fighting knives. The quality on thes eknives was very good & the size looks similar too. That's my thought, a Weimar fighting knife.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#63314
06/06/2008 01:55 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Nice job Denny and Billy. Denny See where the MAX may go back to Indy.
TKissinger
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#63315
06/06/2008 09:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
quote: Originally posted by TKissinger: Denny See where the MAX may go back to Indy.
OFCOL!!!!
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#63316
06/18/2008 01:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
A version of A. Betz, Giessen
TKissinger
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#63317
06/18/2008 01:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
TKissinger:
I have seen, not necessarily on dress bayonets but on other blades, the following Eickhorn TMs:
double oval, smooth tail double oval, smooth tail, C.E. double oval, serrated tail double oval, serrated tail, C.E.
The difference between them is the tail and the presence or absence of the letters 'C.E.' under the squirrel.
Does this variation exist in dress daggers?
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#63318
06/18/2008 05:00 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
quote: Originally posted by TKissinger: A version of A. Betz, Giessen
Terry, Here is another....
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#63320
06/20/2008 12:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Its on page 18 of my pictures.
TKissinger
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#63321
06/20/2008 03:03 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25 |
Jan,
They're not common at all. This one is a beater that I snagged for $50, Terry's got the only other fire piece with this mark that I've seen. As you can see, the plating did not hold up well.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#63322
06/23/2008 12:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Billys right, I do have one. Mine also has these numbers on the flat side of the pommel.
TKissinger
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#63323
08/08/2008 07:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3 |
Hi All, here is a variation of WKC trade mark, which has differencies in the knight's head. The bayonet has fake release button. I will appriciate any info about this bayo. Best regards, Maks
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#63324
08/08/2008 07:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3 |
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#63325
08/09/2008 02:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Here are the two WKC's in my collection that have the fake release button. 2MAX I would guess your bayonet was made in the late 20's early 30's time period. Also your bayonet has two rivets instead of three which I think would put it in the later years of that period.
TKissinger
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#63326
08/09/2008 01:59 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 88
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 88 |
Terry,
Found some typos in your TM listings which you may wish to correct.
Your posting number:
1: T�ttlingen (Aesculap has has now Tuttingen) 5: Sohn (Carl Schmidt has now & Shon)) 12:Bayreuth several times "Byreuth" 25:Gebr (now Gerbr) 30:K�pper & Sohnius (now K�pper & Schnius) 31:ULM A/D (L. W�rz has now ULMA/D) 35:G�ttingen (Th. Jost, now G�llingen) 38:Zannantonio (now Zannatonio)
There are also a lot of cases where the "Umlaut" (�) has been omitted.
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#63327
08/09/2008 08:07 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 801 |
The name where Aesculap was (and still is) located is Tuttlingen (with a "u", not a "�").
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#63328
08/09/2008 08:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 88
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 88 |
Yes, you are right. Terry only has to insert the L after the double T to make it correct.
If you, being German, see more typing errors, then Terry might be pleased to know.
Kilian
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#63329
08/10/2008 02:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Thanks for the corrections. I have changed the ones you have listed and will correct the others later.
TKissinger
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#63330
08/24/2008 11:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3 |
Terry,
thank You very much for the info
best regards, Max
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#63331
08/30/2008 02:07 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25 |
Picked this one up a couple of months ago & am just getting around to adding it, J.E.W. Hellgardt AG, Konigsberg. First time seeing this one too.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#63332
08/30/2008 02:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
Very nice Billy. Definately rare and one I've never seen before.
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#63333
09/01/2008 01:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Billy has done it again, found another rare distributor. Thanks for showing.
TKissinger
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#63334
09/01/2008 01:48 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25 |
Thanks Terry. I've got one more on it's way now which I think is one of those unusual & rarely seen distributors. Will post whenever it arrives
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#63335
09/05/2008 01:01 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25 |
Fresh from the bubble wrap, the only one of this mark I've ever seen. I missed out on it almost a year ago but it found it's way to my stable now. Has anyone seen this mark before? Hilt configuration is Lauterjung all the way, early albeit nonmagnetic as is usually seen on these. It came with an L&E too, Christmas in September
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#63336
09/05/2008 02:07 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
Nice piece Billy.... The city of Lahr is located west of Bitburg, near the Luxembourg border. The company appears to be Sautter Messerschmiede. Check these two Google "hits". http://www.sautter-lahr.de/15308.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=htt...lr%3D%26as_qdr%3DallMy understanding of the term Messerschmiede seems to indicate that you may have found a new manufacturer; not a distributor. Albeit, a rather strange location for a manufacturing facility. I look forward to hearing more about this interesting FW bayo. Wow! It really IS Christmas in September.
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#63337
09/05/2008 02:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Billy
Looks like a nice bayonet. Is it a short or long blade.
Just how many LE bayonets do you have?
Denny
Good job on the info. I had already put it in the distributor list, guess I had better change it. Fisher doesn't have that name listed in his reference.
TKissinger
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#63338
09/05/2008 02:21 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
Terry, Billy is creating an artificial shortage of LE's and is waiting for the right moment to flood the market. However, he doesn't have all of them yet.
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#63339
09/06/2008 04:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25 |
Denny, Thanks man, I appreciate the info on Sautter. I had no idea they might be an individual manufacturer since never having seen another. The mark is pretty plain too so I was thinking distributor all the way. It's a well made piece which always makes me happy to see after 65+ years. My 5th edition of Fisher doesn't list Sautter at all, does anyone know if they appear in a later version? Another interesting thing is the leather buffer which is the thin type but it has an almost yellow color to it. I really can't believe this one fell into my hands. After letting it slip through my fingers a year ago, I figured I'd never see another so I feel really good anout this one. I'm sur eyou know the feeling Terry, At the moment I've only got 4 L&E blades, 1 15mm logo, 2 10 mm logos & 1 with just the letters & no logo. Only a pair of frogs go with them too. I had more but have flipped a few over the years, they always bring a little attention by collectors since maker mark guys like 'em & even people that just want one. From the pieces I've examined, I've found L&E had contracts with several manufacturers from the parts configuration although I've only found one dual marked example which had a '35-'41 Eickhorn mark. Interesting too is that Wittmann has had one listed for $500 which is quite high IMO, especially since it doesn't have a knot. They're out there if you look, his price is likely why it hasn't sold IMO. This sone is a long model, in fact I've never seen a short model with this mark. Even for me, a short model L&E would be a stretch priced at 5 bills.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#63340
09/06/2008 07:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 88
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 88 |
Re: Sautter, Lahr There are at least four cities/towns called Lahr in Germany. The city of Lahr, where Sautter is based, is located on the edge of the Black Forest (Schwarzwald). It had under 20.000 inhabitants by 1940. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LahrOn their website Messerschmiede Sautter write that they exist since 1891 and their specialty is grinding. I could be the same firm as is stamped on the bayonet. In my view being a knifemaker does not rule out the possibility that they acted as a dealer/distributor for dress bayonets made elsewhere. Personally, I would not list them as a manufacturer for dress bayonets without further evidence or confirmation.
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#63341
09/06/2008 08:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 88
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 88 |
Billy,
As for the Sautter marked piece, can you rule out Aesculap as the producer? Tuttlingen is a good 50 miles from Lahr, Solingen roughly 300.
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#63342
09/06/2008 08:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,135 Likes: 25 |
Kilian,
Good question. I can't say if the Sautter piece was manufactured by Aesculap, I've never seen a period Feuerwehr bayonet by them. They did seem to be a smaller, cottage type manufacturer. If they did produce make the FW faschininmesser, it's plausible that they could have purchased parts from another larger manufacturer. Of the pieces in my collection, many of the smaller makers show parts that I would associate with some of the larger production companies.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#63343
11/30/2008 07:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,321
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,321 |
Hi Terry,
Here's a nice Holler distributer marked dress bayo, i just need to find a nice minty frog for it.
Eric
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#63344
11/30/2008 11:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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OP
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Eric
Thanks for posting the photo
TKissinger
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