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Here is my hj leader in very good condition .Opinions are welcome .

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Very nice original. Thanks for posting.

It seems to be a very nice conditioned, original dagger but the pics are somehow dark.

I always thought the leather on those were to stop at the scab fittings ,that looks as if its going under.A variation? Any how that dagger is undergraded at VERY GOOD, that dagger is WAY BETTER than that , it cerainly looks near or at mint state.It looks as if it was never worn. Tiep

Sehr Schoen - Great addition to any collection.

Horst

deutscher, when you squeeze the handle is it soft and somewhat squishy or solid?

The pics show it clearly: the leather stops at the "fittings". Beside the most early EICKHORNs (where there were used real fittings which were attached to a leather corpus) it is impossible for those later RZM ones that leather goes under the fittings as the "fittings" are pressed out of the metal scabbards body. All is ok. here.
The handles and the thin metal wire on them are/is very fragile (due to shrinking of the wooden core) and I personally would not squeeze too much . It also might cause unwished overlapping of the thin wire.
What I can see from these pics the grip (as the whole dagger) seems to be absolutely ok. The certain right, thin grip wire I up to now never have seen being copied.
Only thing I carefully would inspect on this one is if the leather is a replacement or not. I have read of a lot of leather replacments on these kind of daggers and have seen several. But the overal condition of this -as said nice conditioned- dagger would also totally conform to the nice conditioned leather.
Regards,

A nice original HJ Leader in wonderful condition. These daggers are hard to find nowadays. Congrats Deutscher!
-wagner-

Wotan, If you gently squeeze the grip it won't hurt anything, but it will give you a clue as to if the dagger is original or not. From the pictures, the dagger looks like a keeper. You don't have to wear a face mask, rubber suit, and surgical gloves as some people seem to believe when handling these items.

Hi Gelb, Can you expound on the "squeeze test"? -wagner-

Hello Wagner, when you "gently" squeeze the handle, you should feel a soft squishy sensation with a bit of give. If there is no give it may be a problem. I believe there is something between the wire wrap and the wood core although I've never dissected one to find out what it is. If in doubt, and you own one, try it and you will see what I mean. (Rubber suit optional).

Hi Gelb, I've got a Horster I'm going to try that on. I'll let you know "How it Feels"
-wagner-

I have handled several original HYleader daggers, some in pittyful condition. I can tell you that there is absolute nothing between the wire and the wooden core concerning HÖRSTERs. There is a thin layer of siver laquer concerning EICKHORNs. The thin layer of silver laquer often better prevented the wooden core from shrinkage and the wire might fit better, stronger and closer as sometimes (often?) on HÖRSTERs. BUT if the dagger always has been stored in a not too dry surrounding (and not too wet as this would cause rust ) the wire is strong and close as on the day it was made. I cannot see any problem on this point.
Real problems are with non period, mostly thicker wire as - it is not period.

I have on two occasions replaced the entire wire on the grips of Hoerster HJ Leaders. It takes about 42 feet of twisted wire to cover one grip. There was no intermediate layer between the wire and the wood. I used 28 gauge silver wire which is identical to the original that was used. The original wire cannot be re-used once it is off the grip - it is too hard and springy and easily tangles up into a 'birdsnest'.

Well, if there's nothing between the wire and the wooden core perhaps what you should feel is some type of spring tension in the coiled wire. Why would original wire be so springy and want to birdnest when it is removed? You would think it would form some type of memory after being wound for so long. Take the test, I'm curious of your results.

One other point, when I purchased my Leader I had four to choose from. One from a dealer in Michigan, one from a private collector in Michigan, and two sent to me by Joe Pankowski from Wisconsin. I was really shocked to see the various types of fasteners used to attach the pommel cap. One was the same as deutscher's, one had flathead screws, and two had flathead nails. All legitamate methods I've learned. I'm sure this will be debated also.

I have worked on (restored) a number of HJ Leaders and only two of those needed a complete rewiring job. I replaced the brads on some with headless setscrews. The Eickhorns I handled had srew on pommels with a setscrew on the reverse.

Manfred, I'm not sure I understand what you meant by "screw on pommel". I see about 5 Horsters to 1 Eickhorn and as yet have not seen an Eickhorn with the pommel set screw on the reverse. Everything has been mounted from the sides. Not that I doubt you, but personally I have not seen it.

Gelb: Here is apic of the Eickhorn screw-on pommel. First you loosen the locknut.

Then you unscrew the pommel.

Wow Manfred! That's neat! I want to get one of those. My Horster has the nails. That always bothered me. Just seemed so "Non-Germanic" to me. ]
In your opinion, how much more $'s of a "premium" is a Eickhorn nowadays over a Horster? Thanks. -wagner-

Do not want to say that the configuration shown by mgogel is not right, but the 4 EICKHORNs I have seen or owned (I still own one) all have (had) a nail rivet instead of the screw, same position. Without any doubt nevertheless the screw on pommel in each case. There also might be variants in the fixing of the EICKHORN pommel, nails, rivets, screws.
Concerning appearance of HÖRSTERs versus EICKHORNs: TTW once stated in an offering there come about 12 HÖRSTERs on one EICKHORN.

Manfred, wow, that's different for sure. Had no idea that style even existed. Learn something new here every day. That style pommel I would think to be fairly rare. Thanks for posting. P.S. Anybody squeeze the grips yet?

Wotan: I have only handled 3 Eickhorn HJ Leader daggers. The first one had a slip on pommel. The second one is mine which is the one in the pic. The third one had the same pommel arrangement as mine. The first one belonged to a collector friend. It must have been an early one with removable scabbard fittings.

Gelb, I'm squeezing now and I can't feel any give on my Horster.
Manfred, I didn't know that your Eickhorn was a "special Tune-up" version.
Or could it be an "early variation" ? Or maybe a "Limited Trial Run" variation? Too expensive to continue production and unfortunately abandoned for the "nails"?
-wagner-

Hi wagner, Hmmm. Here's what I know for sure. The last two Horster's I've handeled have had the spongy feel to the grip when gently squeezed. I was skeptical when first told, but over time have become a believer. The information comes from a long time collector. mvogel and wotan (also long time respected collectors) seem to disagree with the theory but as yet have not responded to the test. Beyond that, I don't know what to tell you. I'll contact my source and see if I can get more specific information.

That "spongy" feel is due to srinkage of the wood under wire base. The wire is tight originally and tends to loosen over the years. Eickhorn had a few different variations, all rare and under appreciated as to value.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: DO NOT TRY TO TIGHTEN THE WIRE! It is a massive undertaking not to be attempted by the novice. Just my experience advice as I have seen some attempts that went south.

Gelb 14, sorry for any misunderstanding, I did NOT disagree concerning your observation. What I wanted to express is that you should not try any press/squeeze or anything other such tests on those 60+ collector´s items. My observation is that all above delicate and careful handling might cause irreversible damage to collecting items.
Generally you are right about the certain feelings when gripping such a certain dagger. But some of the grips also could hold strong and tight wireing. So I personally would not recommend it as a test for originallity. It is somehow like the wiggle concerning HJknife badges. Might work but does not have to work always and might perhaps cause damage.
Just my thoughts.

Thanks for the lively discussion .I mean this is a complete genuine dagger in very good shape.The leather stops well close on the fittings .The dagger has all attributes for a Hörster HJ Leader .I have no concerns .This dagger cames from Thomas Johnson .

Whew! There we go, I was beginning to believe that surviving the 70's had really done some long term damage. Ok, lets think about this. If your wire wrap is in good condition and you feel that spongy feel when you squeeze the grip, wouldn't this be a good indication that the grip has never been buggered with? Normal wood shrinkage. Ron has already mentioned that things go from fine to fubar at a moments notice if you try to tighten the wire. If the grip wire is tight to the grip, it could mean one of two things. Either the wood grip has not shrunk over the 60+ years it's been there, or it's been rewrapped. Somehow I don't think it's Ebony wood under there (which still can shrink). I would think most wood handles would shrink over time unless you live in Borneo or some other God awful tropical climate. Personally, I like to feel the "give", but by no means is this an all conclusive test as to originality. deutscher, glad to see you've been beamed back, I was concerned. I like your dagger. Wotan, no apology necessary, no offense taken, I enjoy our conversations. Soapbox is clear.

- TO SHRINK, OR NOT TO SHRINK. THAT IS THE QUESTION? -
I think that Gelb brings out a point that I, and many others, have considered. How do some grips from the same model dagger, made about the same time, have such differences in wood grip shrinkage?
Take a common SA grip. I have seen original, never been diassembled daggers, where the grips have receded from the crossguard a noticeable ammount. To the point were some would say "That grip's been replaced !"
Take several other SA daggers with the same conditions, and surprise, the grips are as snug
as they were during the Reich.
I don't know?
I can only guess that: "Some do it a lot, Others do it a little. And then some don't seem to do it at all."
-wagner-

Unfortunately, there is no way to tell how storage with affect some material, even from tree to tree. Also, over a sixty year period and different conditions: eg. south, midwest, northern states, Atlantic coast, there is just no way to determine how the wood base will react.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

wagner, That last quote...were you talking about wood shrinkage or women?