UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum Nurnburg, Olympic, DJ, BDM

The small knife that we have come to know as the DJ/BDM knife, I believe is the same type of knife that was used as a commemorative for the Nurnburg and Olympic events with the addition of the appropriate etchings. Most of the information I have read about the DJ/BDM knife struggles to find a real purpose for their existence.

Could it be that these knives were made specifically for use at the commemorative events suggested above, and that all the 'plain' knives we see today, that were found in crates towards the end, or, at the end of the war, are the leftovers that became redundant and no longer required, because the war had started?

Regards

Russell

Ok, plenty of views but no comments yet.

I guess the above question, pre-supposes that one believes in the commemorative knives in the first place, or am I wrong in saying they are the same type of knife as the so-called DJ/BDM knife?

Perhaps these questions have been posed here before; if so, can someone please point me to the thread?

Or is it just not an interesting subject?

Regards

Russell

Russell, You’ve selected an excellent topic well worthy of discussion. If your observation is that all of the small aluminum hilted knives seem to share common characteristics I think that is pretty much a given. The stag gripped “Olympic” versions of these knives are demonstrably fakes.

Very unfortunately the most comprehensive threads (IMO) regarding them seem to have been lost. Posted below are the only remaining threads that I could find still intact. FP

HJ-DJ Knives

Presentation Thread

Fred, thanks very much for your reply and also the links to the other discussions.

I'm trying to understand the purpose of these so-called DJ/BDM knives with the Bakelite grip. To my limited knowledge, there is nothing at all that shows these knives to be linked to the DJ or the BDM in the first place. Perhaps this theory came about because the knives are physically smaller than the HJ, and generally, so are the members of these organisations, but that's all.

There are ample period photos of the DJ wearing the standard HJ knife, but none that that show the smaller knife being worn by them or the BDM. Also, as you have said in the earlier thread, no period documentation has surfaced, including manufacturer catalogues, which detail the existence of the smaller knife. And, the HJ knife is known as the “Fahrtenmesser für die Hitler-Jugend und das Deutsche Jungvolk” from period sources. So why have another one?

My thoughts are that this knife was not intended to be worn by any organization. I think that it may have been manufactured purely for use as a commemorative knife for the events such as the Party Rallies, as a souvenir if you like. If this were the case, then large numbers of the basic knife would have been made, and then etched accordingly as each event came up. When the war started, the stockpile of un-etched knives would no longer have a purpose, and so stay packed up, for use when the war finished. It could also explain the lack of an RZM mark, as the knife was not any part of an official ‘uniform’ as such. It could also explain its aluminium construction, not requiring the strength for physical daily use, as required by the HJ knife.
I’ve read that these knives were found by the crate towards the end of the war, which could explain why so many are seen in good condition.

I’ve not had the opportunity to handle one of the commemorative knives, or in fact, the ‘plain’ version either. But I’ve always been puzzled by the description the plain version has been given and offer the above for comment. I hope someone who has one or some of these commemorative and plain knives will post some pics.

I’ve added a pic of some DJ members receiving their HJ knives and cross-strap. Apologies for the clarity – it’s a paused image taken from a video.

Regards

Russell

Ruski,
I had the opportunity to purchase a Nurnburg knife two days ago from a very knowledgeable dealer here in the UK,at the War and Peace Fair.I handled it and had a good look at it,it was very light and flimsy,the only word I can think of at the moment.The difference to the HJ was like chalk and cheese.IMO this knife was not intended to be used as a piece of hardware,but as you have already aluded to,as a souvenier of the Rally.I do not think,again,IMO,that these were "issued".However,if they were not,then were they purchased or handed out,if they were given away,then why the amount found in crates,surely there were enough people at the Rally to be able to give away as many as you could churn out.Perhaps because of the fact that they were not an issue knife,then we have a slow starting thread.All that said,it was a nice little knife,the asking price was £350.I passed on it in favour of a nice SA that I will post soon.
Ivan.

That type of knife, as well as the what we know as the "HJ Knife" have been produced in Europe before and after the Nazis. The "HJ Knife" was made with various emblems and used by Boy Scouts of the day. As late as 1980, you could buy them in Germany. Probably still today ? It is possble that the smaller ones were produced as generic smaller versions of the "HJ Knife" with being intended for use by any group in particular.

I will say that I have never seen a period picture of a young girl, BDM or otherwise, wearing one.

Dave

This theory of commemorative use for unspecified events does not explain those with a pinned HJ emblem to the scabbard. These have been accepted as period albeit unattributed for many, many years by very advanced collectors including Tom Wittmann. TW had a couple on his site a little while back. in their own category too. Doesn`t have any right now though. Not cheap items either!

Hey gents, thanks for the comments! I'm happy that perhaps we have a subject here that can be discussed, with a wide range of opinions and factual knowledge. I'm by no means an expert and I'm not disputing anything said or accepted by dealers or collectors with far more experience than me - I'm just interested in reading collectors/dealers thoughts on these knives, and why they seem to be accepted now as the "DJ/BDM knife" without much to back it up. Maybe the real reason is that they are more 'collectable' with this title.

Landser, I didn't bring the knives with the HJ diamond added into the topic, because I think they may be another whole subject themselves! I think it likely that many of the smaller knives had the diamond added during the period, but also believe that many could well be post war enhanced. There are many TR items around imo with enhancements that are period, like daggers, holsters etc, that are not 'official'.

It seems to be widely accepted that the smaller knives with the Nurnburg Party Rally blade enhancements are period and legitimate, and there were a lot of the same type of knives left over at wars end without these enhancements - I guess I'm just putting this together as a possible theory for their existence.

Perhaps these knives were produced even earlier, as Dave said occurred with the HJ knife, and maybe they were used pre the TR period in various youth organisations etc. I hope someone can expand on this. That could well be so, but whatever the reason, they were found to be suitable to carry the Rally commemorative enhancements.

Thanks gents, I really appreciate the discussion! Let's see some more posts.

Regards

Russell

In previous threads it has been noted that there is no known recorded evidence of these knives in the period that would settle this issue either way. As a latecomer to this hobby I like many others have taken direction from those with an advanced knowledge & experience. The knife is mentioned in very early publications & is seemingly acknowledged by some very advanced collectors & dealers from way back to within but a few years of the period. Perhaps some of these knives were obtained by them from veterans which may account for this recognition. Perhaps if one of our senior members has had the good fortune to directly acquire one they will contribute to this thread.

Unfortunately given the voluminous photographic archives not everything is recorded to simplify our quest for knowledge. For example; I have a superb banner that is quite definately a period banner, but as yet no photograph exists to conclusively prove it. Should one ever appear then the value would no doubt multipy considerably. This however is unlikely as one does not normally take photographs in a chapel of rest.

The DJ example that I have has an emblem identical to that of the HJ knife but rather than being flat the surface of the emblem is convex & follows the contour of the scabbard. The scabbard does not appear to have been tampered with post manufacture & so I can only assume it was assembled that way. There are those- & I have no doubt in some quantity over the years- that have been interfered with; most notably with an HJ badge being affixed by some method. I believe that like the HJ knife emblem they should "wiggle" if deemed to be correct. It is certainly interesting to ressurect this topic & let us hope that like so many others it will not vanish into the ether at the divine will of groupee.

While it’s really two topics, I’ll try to address them separately with some overlap. It’s very common to use books to provide a basic framework for collecting in specific areas, and I have a number a number of books myself and I’m not new to collecting. And to trust the expertise of the writers. I mean no disrespect to the early writers, but I think some were better informed than others. But the fact of the matter is that none of them had a guide book covering all aspects of collecting.

And while oftentimes they presented information based on period documentation. It is also true that sometimes they made guesses where they lacked specific knowledge. And sometimes they guessed right. And sometimes they guessed wrong. And sometimes they got fooled. For example on page 307 of Tom Johnson’s Vol. II he has a specimen of a bayonet. The bayonet would not last a nanosecond in today’s more sophisticated collecting world. He gave it a whole page. And some mistakes in books got picked up by others or were repeated, - and were repeated often enough that they later came to be accepted as “facts”. “Facts” that have no basis in the physical world.

Speaking first to the “plain jane” small hiking knives (w/o emblems) there is to the best of my knowledge ZERO documentation of any kind. Not just a lack of pictures. There are not in any period catalogs or period references - or by now I think an example of same would have been posted in the (at least) two years the knives have been discussed. If Tom Wittmann or anyone else for that matter labels them “DJ” or “BDM” or whatever as a means of labeling them that is OK. As long as it’s understood that it is just labeling - unless one of them has some period documentation hidden away somewhere. Without that there is nothing to back up statements claiming that an item is this or that. And if I am wrong. And period documentation of any kind actually does exist. NOW would be the time to present it.

For the emblem added examples I won’t go into the various arguments presented in times past. But would instead focus for the moment on where most seem to agree as regards those examples:

Emblems are seen glued or pinned using usually either the knife or hat type emblems. However some emblems are not RZM marked. And we know that the “conventional” emblems are commonly reproduced intact with fake RZM markings and/or in different colors.

For all the pinned type knife scabbards they have evidence of mouthpieces being removed and rivets reworked/replaced.

And all have aluminum hilts (indicating only a finite possible prewar period of manufacture). And no RZM markings. Although I recently saw a reverse/negative type “RZM” marking added to a scabbard in the manner of a Waffenamt. It was next to one of the holes of a twin hole variant breaking up the scabbard paint where it was post manufacture applied. An interesting attempt to try prove the item was genuine - versus the usually unmarked scabbards.

As for condition: Some show poor storage. But there is no evidence of them ever being used either for the knives with or without emblems. This includes those purchased from vets. But it’s not known if the emblem added examples from vets were preexisting manufacture Or were altered or made as souvenirs for GI’s located or stationed in Germany after hostilities ceased.

So at the end of the day we have: No documentation of any kind. No visible RZM markings, aluminum hilts, and never used. How does that prove a connection to the “DJ”, “BDM” or any Third Reich organization? Because they exist? FP

One thing came to mind after reading the above.

I have seen the HJ knives in near mint condition but I have also seen many that have been sharpened quite often. Just about what you would expect from the only TR knife that was actually used, and used by scouts.

I do not ever remember seen any variety of the smaller knives showing signs of use. I have seen them rusted and deteriorated, but not sharpened. Has anyone else.

Dave

I believe I have seen a couple that had been sharpened. I think it was in the for sales forum about a year ago. Possibly daggeraddict that had 3 or 4 for sale. I can`t remember now if any of them were badged. They were all pretty rough & looked to have been well used. i suppose if they were souvenir knives that might account for them not being used much. I remember when I was a boy scout they were always looking for ways to raise funds. We had "bob a job" week (A bob being slang for a shilling in the old currency). We would go house to house & do small chores. There were jumble sales & the usual raffles etc. I wonder if the HJ might have sold these knives to raise funds? Who knows? Just a thought.

I think many were made during the period, for sale to the masses of the times.

John

Plusses and minuses. 1935 is within the time frame that an aluminum hilted knife could be made before it became a material conserved for military production.

Over the years I’ve had hard drive/computer crashes which did not help things and lost a lot of data. And I was not really archiving images for the ‘variations on a theme’ for the small knives as a group. I’m now collecting information to have a database on what is currently in circulation. For the “Nürnberg Party Day 1935” etched knives I have the following variants: The “DJ” knife with black bakelite grips and the “HJ” emblem on the scabbard. And a well used standard HJ knife by Herm. Konejung A.G. with a fresher looking “Nürnberg Party Day 1935” etched onto the obverse.

To which I am now adding what looks like an untouched example of a stag gripped “DJ” knife with the “Nürnberg Party Day 1935” inscription. It could very easily be just the digital imaging. But this example does not seem to be as well done (etched and painted) as some I have seen (?).

As for “door to door” or general sales to the public the Hitler Jugend was not the Boy Scouts. It was a paramilitary organization whose real purpose was to prepare young men and boys for military service. During the war some HJ members acted in military, paramilitary, and other capacities. Some even earned the Iron Cross and War Merit Cross.

And the HJ emblem itself was not public property - it was NSDAP property. And was a part of the uniform. And for all HJ service uniforms (including accessories like knives) the RZM got a 5% rebate (and is why RZM markings are an important factor). FP

Strike 'untouched' - and make that "an unused example of a stag gripped “DJ” knife". FP

I believe that the Nurnberg pieces are definately original.
Here are my examples. The stag gripped piece is a rare documented variation by Puma which has been discussed IN DEPTH here on GDC and IS a period piece. It is pictured in a reference book and has been inspected by Whitty, who loved it.
The rare pennant, the matching badge and the Puma "hunting" style knife were purchased directly from a german family in Munich by a friend of mine decades ago.
The etch on the Puma is larger, deeper and more detailed than the more common DJ etch. The scabbard is Stamped with the Puma logo and numbered with a DRGM number allong the steel edge. The knife no longer fits completely into the all leather scabbard as it has shrunk slightly over the years.
Enjoy:

Next:

Next::

LAST:

To John and Johnny, thanks for putting up some pics of your commemorative knives! Beautiful looking pieces! And great looking pennants to go with them as well. I hope we will see some more examples and some close-up pics. Does anyone have the set, presumably from 33-38?

Regards

Russell

Gents, I just found this thread on the subject, which may help generate some more or additional thoughts.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/427101702/m/2450024443

Regards

Russell

Ruski,
I don't think you will find these knives from any other year. The only non-1935 etched knife that I saw was in one of Johnsons books (as I recall) and it was a stag gripped Puma like mine but it had a different etch for the different year.
The other Pumas and all of the DJ knives seem to all be from 1935. I think it is pretty obvious that souveniers were made heavily for these rallies (postcatds, pewter plates, beer steins, badges, pins, tinnies, pennions, etc. etc. etc.). I think it makes sense that they tried out these little knives one year as well. Perhaps they did not sell very well and thus we do not see them in later years...
Good hunting,
Johnny

Johnny, your last comment leads me back to my original question:
"Perhaps they did not sell very well and thus we do not see them in later years..."

Could that be why we see so many plain blade versions now - leftover unused stock, and struggling with what label to give these things??

I'm sure I've seen or read about other Party Rally knives with different years etched on the so-called DJ/BDM knife, with plain bakelite grips. I will keep searching to see if I can find links to them. From memory, I think they utilised the same etch, with just a change to the year.

Has anyone else ever seen in hand any other years apart from 1935?

Regards

Russell

Russell, First, thanks for finding the thread you posted. I remembered parts of it but did not find the thread in my limited search. The question you presented in combination with the thread and pieces from some other threads put together make me think that you may be on the right track. And at the same time could help explain why so many variations of the 1935 Party Day knives are seen now as well as shed some light on the “DJ” knives in general.

I was not a blade collector at the time so those who were specialists back then can correct me if I’m wrong. But my recollection is that at shows in the dim past the “DJ” type of Party Day knives were few and far between. Taking that recollection and incorporating it with information from Ron Weinand’s input in the previously mentioned thread and another one - let me propose the following theory:

The premise being that an unknown number of blank (non-etched) Party Day souvenir knives were manufactured in 1935 in anticipation of the 1936 party day (and perhaps later ?). And the unfinished (ie: no etching) knives went into storage. For some reason the orders for Party Day knives never materialized and they sat in storage.

In 1945/46 to satisfy the demand for souvenirs some enterprising soul pulled some of blank Party Day knives out of storage and had the HJ emblem added to the scabbard. Said knives being sold to GI’s. These knives would be the ones reported by Ron Weinand in as new condition.

With very likely a number of the unsold “plain jane” Party Day souvenir knives going home with GI’s as is. What is unknown at this point is how many knives of any “Party Day/DJ” type might have been post 1945 manufacture - versus being made in the mid 1930’s. (Similar in concept to the conventional HJ type knives that Dave Hohaus mentioned that were made after the war.)

Fast forward to the present:
They are not in any of the old books or catalogs that I have ever seen. But we now have the HJ emblem equipped Olympic “DJ” knives with stag handles that are demonstrably postwar modified/etched. And large numbers of “DJ” knives that use the different pin types and glued emblems on the scabbards. And all kinds of combinations of the above. And what presumably was a postwar test version for counterfeiters - using a well worn HJ knife that has had the 1935 Party Day etching added to the blade.

That some of the small knives are fakes (modified) I think is beyond any reasonable doubt. Where it gets more intense IMO is that while some knives are legitimate period artifacts. Others are not. And sorting out the good from the bad is not a pleasant task.

The above scenario I think matches up to your idea of unetched Party Day knives going into storage. And at the same time seems to coincide with assorted input from a number of folks over the two year period and before when the above mentioned thread was posted. If the theory outline has some gaps what might they be?
Regards, FP

Close ups..

2

very close

Vintage- NICE knife and fantastic close-ups! THANKS!

Frog Prince- You and I and everyone else who deals with these knives has a theory. Your line of logic "holds water", but then (with the evidence at hand) so does mine, as well as many other peoples. Sadly at this point (in my opinion) it has less to do with a logical theory and more to do with the evidence at hand.
Sadly, the evidence "at hand" is incomplete and thus our theories propagate.
Good hunting,
Johnny

Many fakes of the Puma type appeared in the 60's. Many, most or all were marked Emil Voos. You can see them in Repro-Reco by Fred Stephens. They did not have the metal reinforced scabbard.
This Puma or one like it with the pennant has been photographed many times. You can find the photos in the old books. This may not be the same piece.
In the "old days" the 35 DJ type party day knives were not known. They did not show up until maybe the 80's. This could be verified if you have some old catalogs where they talked about "finding" these pieces in Germany.
There also are a very few small skinning type knives that have the 35 etch--but a little different. I had one once in the 80's or 90's and may have seen one other. It's out there somewhere.

Houston and I agree on this and the timeline stated by him.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Well, I guess I could get my money back from TTW, but it makes a nice display knife either way. Besides, for how little I paid for this, I could make a profit selling it as a repro from the 1960's........it's collectible in it's own right. There are those who collect the early repros from the 1960's.
Plus, there will be those who believe these to be authentic. If a period photo ever comes up, then the value would go up.
I appreciate the discussion on these, and I have learned a lot. Thanks guys.

John

Houston, and Ron; thanks for your interest and comment in this quite diverse thread.

Houston, could you please expand a little more on the quote below, and please, accept apologies from me if I have mis-interpreted:

'In the "old days" the 35 DJ type party day knives were not known. They did not show up until maybe the 80's. This could be verified if you have some old catalogs where they talked about "finding" these pieces in Germany.'

The area I am greatly interested in is the 1935 DJ type party knife. Is it your opinion that all of these “1935 DJ type party knives” are not TR period etched product, and are post war enhanced, perhaps as copies of the Puma type knives?

As John says above, there will likely be varying opinions on the authenticity of these "DJ type party knives”.

Have you seen any other "DJ type party knives” with a differing date to 1935?

Regards

Russell

I'm not certain about these 35 DJ type party knives. I just know they were not known ( as far as I know) in the early days of collecting. If you are really interested--as I said-- you could find from book publication dates and old catalogs just about when they appeared on the collector market.

The timeline Houston and Ron state roughly coincides with my own recollection of when I think I saw my first DJ style Party Day knife. I also think that John’s example is a more recently manufactured version of the knife. Here are a couple of images showing an older version alongside John’s. Note the seeming lack of age and the lower quality of finishing. And especially what looks like two tone gold work on the stag gripped version. Also the poorly done grip rivets and what could be casting voids in the handle itself. FP

The handle.

Thanks Houston. Perhaps if these ‘1935 DJ type party knives’ didn't appear until the eighties, there could be some scepticism as to their authenticity as a period item. Being 45+ years absent from the collectors market before making an appearance does seem to be quite a stretch, and a position which could be difficult to defend with any certainty, perhaps unless they are very rare pieces.

The two etch styles of the party day knife that Fred has shown above are quite different, however the one on the left looks similar to the etch on Johnny’s Puma, with the leather scabbard shown on the previous page. Johnny, can you comment on that?

Fred, thanks for the pics - is the one on the left a ‘DJ type party knife’, but with stag grips, or is it one like Johnny’s?

Regards

Russell

Russell, The knife blade pictured to the left is one of the black plastic gripped examples of the same type as Johnny V’s. Regards, FP

Ruski- The etch on my Puma is very different from the etch on my (and other) DJ types. It is much larger, more detailed and stched more deeply than what we see on the more common DJ pieces.

Thanks Johnny - it looks like the etch on your Puma (with stag grip and leather scabbard), and the etch on the knife shown by Fred above left (DJ style party knife with plastic grips), are similar. As we haven't got a close-up of your Puma etch, would you say they look similar, or are they quite different? If similar, that shows at least two different types of knife that carry the deep and more detailed etch.

Regards

Russell

Here's another short thread on the subject.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/427101702/...790046893#3790046893

Regards

Russell

Ruski- I am sorry to say that this conversation is going on at a very inconvenient time because I am moving in a few weeks. I have already packed up my collection to make sure that everything is safe. If that were not the case I would have already posted close-up pics for this thread by now. Until I get settled in in my new location I will just have to describe it to you.
The etch on the Puma is similar to the other DJ knives in the design of the etch (IE Eagle on top, then "Reichsparteitag Nurnberg 1935" amd the Nurnberg crest below". However the Puma each is about 20% larger in all dimentions than the standard DJ etch. The Eagle is most obviously different as it has more feathers and details than the smaller DJ etch. As I said before the Puma is also etched more deeply than the others.
So yes, it is a very similar etch overall, however once you look closely it is truly unique and differs from the DJ version in every way.
Hope that helps,
Johnny

I might be able to help a little here until Johnny V. has time to take some more pictures. Here are the two knives shown closer in a side by side from one of his images. I think that it shows some of what he is making reference to.

Also in looking at it in a direct side by side image my sense of it is that the pommel on the the Puma might be a higher grade alloy. Possibly from Durener Metallwerke which made period aircraft grade materials. Not so for the “DJ” version of the knife in any of its many assorted incarnations. I also am probably going to revamp my “theory” some, but don’t know at the moment just what shape it will take. Although I think it’s fair to say that I think I’m seeing a lot more in the way of postwar activity. FP

Thanks F.P. You did a great job of lineing those up to scale. From the pics that I provided this shows what I am talking about.
If I can find the box with the Nurnberg daggers in it I will try to get some closer pics up soon. Too bad the old thread about these knives is not still on GDC because I had already submitted close-ups of each blade type with discriptice comparison... it is like dejavoo (sp?)

Many thanks to Johnny and Fred for the additional info and comparison pics.

Good luck with the move Johnny! Look forward to seeing your pics when you're settled again.

Regards

Russell

OK, I did some un-packing/re-packing to get these pics.
I hope they help. I would like to mention that the first two pictures (of each set) are of the same "scale" and were taken from the same distance from the blade. Thus the first two, and the last two pics, show the difference between the "standard" Nurnberg DJ type as compared to the rarer Puma type...
Let me know if you have questions... but it may be some tme before I con post more pics.
I hope this helps!
First the DJ!
Johnny

Puma SAME scale!

PLEASE notice that the DJ eagle is MUCH simpler than the eagle on the Puma version....

And the Puma Eagle:!!!! (from the SAME DISTANCE)

PLEASE notice the deamatically better detail in the Puma Eagles chest feathers and head deatil as well as the detail of the leaves around the swaz. itself.
To be honest, I can understand the doubt that exists within the community about the DJ pieces. (The quality has been... "lacking")
However after having owned and held a the Puma version in my hands, I can see the quality, detail, and workmanship which ecemplifies this period of German craftsmen.
I (personally) have No doubts about the Puma pieces, and thus the DJ pieces as well.
If there is anything more thay I can provide with my 2 examples please let me know.
All the best, and good hunting,
Johnny

Johnny, thanks for going to the trouble of un-packing to find these and taking some great photos! The pics clearly show how different these two pieces are. The Puma certainly looks to be a very high quality piece with a beautiful deep, sharp, and highly detailed etch - thankyou for showing it!

In terms of the quality, the 'DJ type' can't be compared to the Puma, and I don't think the lesser quality alone would necessarily mean that the 'DJ type' version was not a period piece. A scenario - if the ‘DJ’ pieces are more prevalent than the Puma types, which they seem to be, perhaps this could be because their overall total production cost may have been a lot less than the Puma. As they were essentially souvenirs, perhaps a lower quality item at a lesser cost would be sufficient to sell at the Party Day, and therefore also allow a little more margin for the Party with each piece sold.

On the other hand, if the ‘DJ type’ did not appear until the 80’s sometime, this would have to put a question mark over why the ‘DJ type’ did not appear until 45+ years after the event, and most likely the first question asked is - could this type be postwar? If so, then my opening post in this thread, of trying to explain the existence of the so-called ‘DJ/BDM’ knife as leftover un-etched Rally knives cannot be right – and that’s okay! Judging by the number of views this topic has received, it would appear that there is a great deal of interest in these knives and I look forward to seeing and reading more about them!

Regards

Russell

Russell and Johnny V. First, I’d like to thank Johnny for going to the extra effort to pull out and photograph the two knives. It’s very refreshing to work with guys who aren't afraid to take a good look at what they have trying to sort out the good from the bad. If I was a judge and there was a “poster child” award for trade quality mid 1930’s Solingen blades. I would have to give it to the Puma. What is basically a hunting/souvenir knife - it shows what level of workmanship that the German blade industry was capable of creating in that era.

Unfortunately this weekend I’ve got some work and other things to do. And to some extent I’m also tied up in discussions with a couple of (very likely) parts pieces and a rework elsewhere. So I’m probably going to have to hold off for a couple of days before I have a chance to really look at the images. Best Regards, FP

This is a superb thread. I really enjoyed the read. Very interesting and educational.
With my post bumping it up, i hope other people can read it as it is certanlty worth it.

A while back, I remember a long dissertation by Bill Shea about the DJ knives and how, if my memory serves me well, he actually talked to someone high up in the BDM, the girl version of DJ, and that the DJ knife is actually a BDM knife.

This could explain why so few of them were used or abused. Pardon my sexism, but boys do like to play with knives, while girls don't.

It sounded like a good story at the time and DJs (or BDMs or whatever) of both styles, with and without insignia on scabbard, as well as the Nurnberg and the Olympic knives all seem to be accepted by many of the 'names' in the business.

I have seen these, all of these, for sale at various times at all of the major and many of the minor dealers.

At the MAX two years ago, I almost purchased a Nurnberg Voos knife, but I found conflicting stories and body language from the guys whose opinions I asked and I also found the knife way too flimsy to be comfortable. I have the two versions of the DJ, and they are both more solid, like real knives.

John

Bringing this back to top with my DJ/BDM. It is the same size as the small knives posted here but the blade is shaped like the normal full-sized HJ knife. Comments please.

Obverse

Grip

Mark

I'd like to see the grip rivets of both sides in sharp detail.

The rivets appear to be aluminum, they don't attract a magnet.

Rivet 2

Rear rivet 1

RR2

Height of rivets

Comparison with full-size HJ in the center.

The HJ emblem appears to be full-size and it moves a little in the grip. The knife at the top in the picture above is very similar to the bottom one except that the emblem is horrible. The hilt on the top one is also cruder in its finishing. The blades are very similar (and quite thick). I got the 2 smaller knives from separate deals at different times.

The smaller type also exists with the motto and the grip emblem and possibly a maker too but--I never look at these too close-- -I think you know why.

Bringing this back up again

I posted this on the misc forum ,One of my Nuremberg Rally knives bag's is in bad shape. I am sending this bag to the University of Georgia for testing. Not a C 14 test but a test to show if the trees used for paper and the ink if made from plant material was living prior to nuclear weapons testing. If they were living during nuclear weapons test of the 40s and 50s it will show up. I have already tested all of my bags with UV light and they passed. Paper manufacturers started adding brighteners to paper in the late 40s and onward. These brighteners glow under UV light. None of my bags glowed. The lab states that the test will take about three weeks. I am sending the bag to them next week. If it passes I am sure some will state that they used old paper , bags and ink to make these at a later date. If the grip plates of the flat non rounded horn grips are real stag horn I want to have it tested also. If I can find a Nuremberg or Olympics knife with a broken grip plate I would like to purchase it for testing. I noticed a Rally Knife above with a round stag horn grip. I have never seen one of those before. I have only seen the ones with a flat type of grip. The bag being sent for testing is from one of the flat stag horn grip knives. I will keep this site updated. Regards , Rattler

I've asked this before and never got an answer. Whatever happened to those HJ knives with blue diamonds that had the Olympic Rings? I haven't seen any in at least 15 years.

Johnson and others sold all of them, and I assume they are now in deep closet collections.

Reminiscent of the PW "Krupp" daggers (and it's been awhile since I've seen one) what my recollection of the blue diamond knives is that guys who specialized in HJ collectibles did NOT like them at all considering all of them to be fakes. And the surest way to not find any buyers is getting a bad reputation and keeping it alive by educating the new guys, so they stay hidden. (Or get converted back to a red diamond, new grips, whatever.) Best Regards, Fred

Hello ,

I discover this old post and by the same time I note the apparition of such daggers to be sold elsewhere .

My opinion on that knives is dubitative : in spite of commercial arguments ( a lot of DJ daggers discovered in Eastern Germany after 1990 ) the blades are as new , I do not know some metal of 80 y.o with such a brightness even if they were kept in a protected area.

S+

If all that is lacking to prove authenticity is photographs of such daggers in wear, that could be easily solved. Assuming the "Big Boys" are all conspiring to sell these variations for big buck over the last 30 years, why would they not invest a few hundred dollars to have period photographs "Enhanced". A little photoshopping would definitely boost sales.
I have to be honest, I never owned, sold or traded one of these daggers, so I have no vested interest.

Hey dont give them Big Boys or shady scammers any ideas as it just might come true one day !!!

Funny how we do not see any well worn or abused knifes in question here ? we see plenty of well worn & sharpened origional HJ knifes, i would not buy any of these knifes in question here without any period info/evidence to back them up especially these Nurnburg & Olympic knifes, the DJ or so called BDM knifes might be only a common utility knife sold to joe blogs, then post war humped up by adding a hj diamond, but i,m not sure if these small non paramilitary knifes were produced pre war or post war ?



Regards Mac 66

I know a graphic designer, who having seen some of his work, could digitally do the transformation very easily. But getting it put into a period publication is another matter, also not trusting loose photos which are well known to be faked for pay books, autographed, etc. etc. for the collector market. But if some of the "Big Boys" actually commissioned somebody do the work imagine this scenario: count #1) - Conspiracy, #2) Fraud, #3) Multiple counts of fraud, #4) at the Felony level, #5) at the Federal level (crossing state lines). So no, I think that's the real reason why we haven't seen any of these alleged "period in use pictures" that some claim exist. Because it's one thing to sell a fraud/fake and claim ignorance or "everybody is doing it" - but when you take it a step beyond that into committing criminal acts to further that fraud - that could conceivably get you some serious jail time. Best Regards, Fred

I found a pic. What do you reckon guys?

This is very interesting, Nork!

The picture shows a non standard HJ-knife -just look at that finger guard!- and it shows a HJ-diamond attached to the scabbard.

Can you tell us more about the picture? Is it from a book or a magazine? Is it a private period photo?

Thanks and best regards,

Herman

Herman V. is the back of the photo marked in any way?

A friend sent me this. Says he found it online recently. I'll try and find out where he got it from. Someone said apparently that the rune is weird or too bright? Well the man pictured is a high ranking DJ leader (Gebiet Jungvolk Fuhrer) and those sleeve runes were only in use for a short time. Nothing wrong that rune at all. The knife is definitely interesting though and it looks like it has the correct dimensions to be a DJ knife and with scabbard diamond! What I would say is that this photo is early, not late-war. Some sellers put these knives into mid-war or late-war so the photo turns that theory on its head I think.

Hello, this is a truely interesting photograph. Imho it shows, that most fake developments have it´s origine in a period phenomenon.
Unfortunately the pic is blurry. Otherwise we could see what it is in the grip itself as there is(!) something between the two rivets I cannot spot exactly.
Thank you for showing this pic!
Regards,

Hello, the thing in the middle of the grip is the leather retaining strap with press stud. On the smaller knife it was there as opposed to higher up on the pommel on the normal size of knife.

That is correct, Nork!

A lower positioned snap is sometimes also seen on early, unofficial HJ-knifes, like the "eagle-head" hereunder.

I am very curious to get more information about this fascinating photograph!

Best regards,

Herman

I know that there is an angle and the first individual pictured is larger, but I'm not so sure that the knife at the top is actually smaller using the belt buckle and the knife pictured below as reference points. That said, what's also interesting is that an approximate date can be assigned to the picture because of the short time the runes were used. Best Regards, Fred

Okay, seems that the photo isn't real after all. I found the Hitler Youth Militaria Forum source. The guy who sent it to me didn't read the story behind the photo and just assumed it was real. Sorry guys.

Hello Nork,

Do you have any information about who, when and why this photo was "produced"?

Best regards,

Herman

Herman, Nork already gave the info: https://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31/stunning-new-evidence-dj-knife-found-11490/#post76816
and it seem that Jo Rivett has made the photograph.

I want to emphasize that due to what I have in my personal evidences of PERIOD worn edged weapons (some of these daggers or hangers you have not seen up to now or will see at least very very rarely - I am sure you eg. remember my photograph of the HYouth knife with the emblem low in the grip) I had no reason to mistrust the photograph carried from Nork to our forum. What we have learned is, that we always should demand the mentioning of the source if a photograph is not in the personal posession of the person who shows it.
Regards,

You are right, Wotan!

Thanks for the input.

Herman