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#60716 01/02/2006 03:25 PM
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Dave Offline OP
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At the request of the original poster, I have removed a thread about a German Officer Dress Dagger.

Dave

#60717 01/02/2006 04:42 PM
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Dave, This was a great discovery and now deleted. Why ? JR

#60718 01/02/2006 04:51 PM
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Frown Confused


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#60719 01/02/2006 05:08 PM
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Did the guy get all that work done by the members and then yanked it? If that was the AMANN, really poor form on that guys part.

Mark Confused Mad

#60720 01/02/2006 05:42 PM
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I was lucky !

I saved the thread and the pic's.

The Owner also sent me more detailed pics for worlddaggers.com reference site.

#60721 01/02/2006 05:54 PM
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Bet they were getting bombarded with offers for it...

Hopefully they will update us as to how things turn out.


<a href="http://www.stirnpanzer.com"><img border="0" src="http://www.stirnpanzer.com/images/oscommerce.gif" alt="Stirnpanzer Militaria"></a><br /><b><h3>Consignment Items Wanted !!! - Only 5% Commission</h3></b>
#60722 01/02/2006 06:20 PM
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This is a shame to me. I personally have no interest in buying this dagger but from a historical perspective it would have been interesting to see what else about it turned up. Perhaps Bob will re-start the thread on WMCA!
Jim

#60723 01/02/2006 06:29 PM
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That is nice Mad . People could not avoid making offers I bet. Roll Eyes Now we all lost it for personal records. Mad

#60724 01/02/2006 07:12 PM
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I want to thank everybody for all of there hard work in helping us in discovering what we have. The reason we pulled it is because all the interest it has generated I will keep you informed as to what happens with the dagger. We just want to gather all the info we can on this from my dad. Because all of you have been so helpful with ideas on how to proceed with this. I hope I haven't made to many of you mad about this. I will Keep in touch as major events happen

#60725 01/02/2006 07:27 PM
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Good move and good for you! I'm sure that you were getting low-balled on offers. Take your time before you sell... IF you sell it. Another tactic would be to just put it in a safe deposit box and allow it to gain in value. It's almost a sure thing that it will never go down in value.

#60726 01/02/2006 07:37 PM
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Start at $10 million, you can always go down if you have to ! Big Grin But don't pull the thread. Who ever gets it will put another 20K-50K or more on top of what they offered you for the piece. It's called business, but don't put away the photos and the thread as sometimes these will never come to light again. Example: Himmler's M36 dagger, most of the birthday swords, 14 SS honor daggers etc.

#60727 01/02/2006 09:02 PM
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What was it? I missed the thread.

#60728 01/02/2006 09:24 PM
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I am glad that the owner answered here.

Since he is the author of the tread, the owner of the dagger(or his son), as well as the owner of the pictures, I felt I should honor his request.

I have had several emails from Members urging me to do just that. Here is one quote:

" I advised that the Owenr of the Amann dagger have his Pics removed from the GDC.com websight/Although this is a Very interesting posting the Pics may do harm to the status of the Dagger if real.Until he gets info on it please contact them and see what you can do to Get them taken down.... "

Dave

#60729 01/02/2006 09:51 PM
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If these photos are available on another site as stated above-then IMO they should be put back on GDC. Our members should not have to go to another site to view something that was posted here. Information should belong to the community. JMO. If the owner does not want to be contacted then his information can be removed--but--its really too late for that.


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#60730 01/02/2006 11:07 PM
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This makes absolutely NO sense to me. Confused Just how in the hell can you "harm the status of the dagger" by placing pictures of it on a public Forum while necessary background documentation is being assembled?
Among the purposes of GDC is to serve as a learning tool and a place where members can share information about acquisitions. Other rare finds have surfaced here and not been "harmed" to the best of my knowledge.
I would think that the opposite impression that something is definitely wrong with this piece has been given to the membership by removing it from view.
Jim

#60731 01/02/2006 11:41 PM
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Skoalmt, my suggestion to you would be to consign the item to one of the top tier dealers, agreeing in advance to the fee, and or % of sale price and a length of time to sell. Many dealers will be at the SOS next month and this should give your piece some excellent exposure. Pricing an item like this is very difficult. Who knows when the last one was sold...
The collecting community is very happy to see this dagger brought to the market.
Best of luck.
Paul

#60732 01/02/2006 11:45 PM
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Dave Offline OP
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To repeat what I said before,

I was asked by the owner of the Dagger and the pictures to remove it. I agreed. I talked with Vern and he agrees that in a situation like this, the request is valid.

Dave

#60733 01/02/2006 11:52 PM
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I happen to agree that the owner has the right to request his thread be removed.

I for one, will not start another thread about it.


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#60734 01/02/2006 11:54 PM
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Let me add a couple of thoughts:

- Nothing that the owner has said tells me that the item is going to be sold.

- I sent them an email advising that IF they intended to sell it, that they consign it and get at least 85% of the sale price for themselves. Consignement often takes longer, but yields more.

I also advised them to get it valued first ... as you saw in the thread.

Dave

#60735 01/02/2006 11:59 PM
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Bob,

Good decision.

Dave

#60736 01/03/2006 12:12 AM
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Dave,
Thanks

I did the same as you.
I think that i provided them enough details to get them going.


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#60737 01/03/2006 03:16 AM
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I think the un-informed owner who used our members to find out what he had and then asked to have the thread removed did one of the most selfish acts I have witnessed in this hobby.

Absolutely sophmoric.

I wholeheartedly agree with Jim M. His comments were dead on.

Mark Mad

#60738 01/03/2006 03:32 AM
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Take it easy


The only thing that is selfish is some of the comments from some members here.I Urged them to have the Pics removed from the forum and to Contact Wittman for a Full Appraisal of the item,even if it costs them a few bucks so be it.This way as an Apprasier,TW can give a Fair impartial Value for the Item.

Public Forums are good but when it comes to an absolute One of a Kind piece so privacy for the seller Must be upheld until they choose to come back out and either show it sell it.

And Jim when a Piece of this Magnitude is Placed on a PUBLIC Forum that can cause all sorts of problems,we are not dealing with an oddball army or possibly a Rohm Dagger....Unfortunately when you post on a Public forum you get LOTS of Opions and Ideas....unfortunately 1/2 of those are Just right out of left field and the others are pretty right on...and for the owner that can cause a Deeper mess than you know.

The owner posted it with Good intentions...He said he was Thankful for the info...what else ya want,leave him in peace to find out what he can on the piece and if he chooses to sell it or share info then its his choice.

TOM

#60739 01/03/2006 03:38 AM
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I'm sorry that you feel this way. You are right. I'm the un-informed owner. that is why I'm erring on the side of caution because of all the attention. This has been in my family for sixty years and we are following the suggestion from other member of German daggers dot com. I enjoyed the postings that were given and look forward to being a part of this community. Sorry if you think this is sophomoric, but it was my family's decision and that is who I have to please at this point. we have every intention of keeping all of you informed of any major events, Thank You for time and concern.

#60740 01/03/2006 04:32 AM
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I think this entire thread should be deleted with no reference to it ever appearing anywhere because it is the biggest load of BS I have ever read on this forum


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#60741 01/03/2006 06:49 AM
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If it that easy Dave, please remove all my photos, articles, and posts for the last 5 1/2 years. The reason being is that I don't want anyone to use the pictures or the information that I have offered. They belong to me.

#60742 01/03/2006 07:35 AM
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I understand the new member wishing not to be contacted concerning the piece any further. However, I don't understand why he would want the photos removed??
IF he has his identity removed from the pictures, then there is no reason to not allow the piece to remain in the community for collectors to see it and understand that there are still great pieces to be discovered in the woodwork.
This does give Mr. Atwood credit for bringing it to the attention of the collector in his original work. How often have you heard that some of those pieces pictured never existed and were dummies that just were made up to sell his book? This sure does destroy that line of thinking.
Anyway, there is no artistic claim to photos posted here on a public forum. No ownership as they are not copyrighted.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: Go JR! I know exactly how you feel.


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#60743 01/03/2006 07:53 AM
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Very well stated Ron. No doubt the dagger will be sold in the next week, credit for discovery will go to who ever hands over the "suit case" as part of the deal, and information will now only be allowed on a need to know basis.

#60744 01/03/2006 08:13 AM
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The tone this thread has taken casts a pall over the entire collecting community. Just what is being hidden here and for just what purpose remains to be uncovered. I personally think we are seeing "Fear and Greed", the two emotions that drive most speculative ventures in action. Time will tell!
Jim

#60745 01/03/2006 09:04 AM
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For all of those who didn't get to see the real thing.....................

ID.jpg (35.47 KB, 510 downloads)
#60746 01/03/2006 09:24 AM
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JR,

Thanks much for the posting. I hadn't seen the picture when originally posted and the mystery and my curiosity where for sure, laboring me.

John

#60747 01/03/2006 09:40 AM
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Well well....I'm sure the owner got several hundreds of e-mails from the vultures of this forum.Yes ,it's sad but it's typical of the society we live in.Greed is an emotion hard to control for some.

I'm pretty sure that the dagger and pics would have stayed up for forum members to read about and enjoy,if only the greedy were asleep.

And to the angry of you.I understand, but imagine yourself in this position.If i posted my dads 60 years old dagger on a forum and got several hundred e-mails craving it, i would get paraniod and run with the dagger.

I'm sure any forum can do without the bloodsuckers, but that be dreaming you know.. Big Grin

Ulf.

#60748 01/03/2006 11:19 AM
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It's kind of sad to see this person use this forum and the enormous amount of goodwill, research and knowledge that was offered and given to him for him to turn around and say he does not like getting the email offers to buy that that this information generated for him.

I honestly don't think it is fair

#60749 01/03/2006 12:01 PM
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Hello Everyone, Can someone tell me why its OK to have the dagger posted on http://www.worlddaggers.com for reference,and not on the forum where it was originaly posted,thanks regards Stan

#60750 01/03/2006 12:54 PM
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I'm a little torn with regards to this subject. It would have been nice to keep it on the site as a marketing boost for GDC - the FIRST place where people come to learn about their treasures.

But on the other hand, I can understand having the post removed until further investigation is performed. Too many times have I seen someone post an oddball item on this forum (and others) and then see the person and the item get ripped to shreds - if you disagree with this, then either you're diluted or not paying attention because it does happen...a lot, and not just with daggers.

I think it's better for the family to get some expert opinions first, then come back and let us know what is going on, perhaps give some recognition to GDC for assisting in their endeavor, and grant us the permission to place the pictures back on the site so we can learn from the experience.

So in the meantime, let's please be courteous and respect the decision.


Regards,
Aaron
#60751 01/03/2006 01:05 PM
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Hello Again everyone,It has now been removed from worlddaggers.com.
I hope it does not disappear for ever in someones collection.and we will never know whether it was real or not,But then again if its posted on a Reference site it must be real,Regards Stan

#60752 01/03/2006 02:29 PM
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Nats,

I took it down for a little while
I had to insert watermarks.

Last night the file was downloaded 57 times.

It's back up now


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#60753 01/03/2006 02:51 PM
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Thanks Bob,
Now many people will see why the pictures were removed. We are not being selfish, thanks to Bob and Dave for the great advice. They have our info for people if you need to contact us, they can forward to us. All emails will be answered. Happy New Year

#60754 01/03/2006 04:26 PM
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Is it just me or do others think it's bizarre that it's perfectly ok for JR to post a photo of purportedly the same dagger out of a book but it's not ok to post a photo of the actual dagger?
Isn't that the same as saying it's ok to post a picture of a celebrity as it appears in a magazine but not an actual photo of the same celebrity?
Jim

#60755 01/03/2006 08:37 PM
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Bob Rodgers, I do have nothing agaist you and do appreciate your inputs in the forum and your knowledge, but i have made my investigations for the GD.C forum and not for http://www.BobRodgersMilitaria.com .
Generally very sad that this so interesting event and thread went this way.
Best regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#60756 01/03/2006 09:36 PM
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Thanks to Bob Rodgers. He has sent me an e-mail and my case, concerning the mentioned investigations and http://www.BobRodgersMilitaria.com, seems to be solved.


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
#60757 01/03/2006 10:20 PM
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Attwood Published the Pic of the dagger in his book because at the time he either owned the Pic from a Factory file or most likely reprinted through permission of one of the solingen Trade Publications,Technically for a Photo to be reused one needs permission either from the Author or in this case the Publisher,it not a Free domain situation.

Now for Bob to post the pics on his site using His watermark then looks like he is in trouble if he does not have permission from the owners which I do not see him having.

I cant believe you guys would not want to Give the owners some slack for Privacy here and give them a Chance to have it checked out...Now I see one of the reasons Denny left as Moderator.

According to the owners it may NOT Be for sale...or are we to assume that since anyone can post pics here of items that EVERYTHING Is for sale?

#60758 01/03/2006 10:23 PM
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Tom,
The original poster sent the pic's to me after i requested them for that site.

Not my sale site either.


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#60759 01/03/2006 10:40 PM
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Bob

OK...I see thats not the sale site and if you have permission then your good,By the way Nice to have you back on the Board.

TOM

#60760 01/05/2006 12:45 AM
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It is interesting that Worldaggers.com now has their name emblazoned across every one of the original photos that were posted here to start with! The only thing missing is the "copyright" symbol. Kinda makes me wonder, I can see it now "XX's New Book! Now Available with EXCLUSIVE photographs of the ULTRA RARE Amman Dagger" HMMMM!


"Don't crush that Dwarf! Hand ME the Pliers."
Frank Zappa
#60761 01/05/2006 12:52 AM
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Since you didn't bother to read above,

I stated i did that because others had already downloaded the pics 57 time over night.

The owner of the daggers did not have an issue with that at all.

What he can't get over is the attitude of some of the posters on this forum.

Now if that is in viloation of the CoC, Dave can contact me and i will forward the email to him .


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#60762 01/05/2006 02:15 AM
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Well I for one could give a crap less what the owner of this dagger thinks of anyone here. He freely posted these photos milked everyone on this forum for information and then decided to take a hike with his pictures. As far as I'm concerned he can take his unsheathed dagger and sit on it! This whole situation has been mishandled from the gitgo and Ron Weinand at least had the cohones to call it the way it is!
Jim

#60763 01/05/2006 02:35 AM
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Jim

So the owner of an item has not right to correct a mistake?...Coming here for Info was not the Mistake but posting the Pic was...so they corrected that untill further examination.

And if you took Pics of an item YOU own you retain Rights with or without copywright,Permission must be granted...If thats the case then because I won Rons helmet book I am sure he would not want me posting pics of certain pages even though its on a Public form and Just for Us guys to look at.

#60764 01/05/2006 02:47 AM
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quote:
I'm sure the owner got several hundreds of e-mails from the vultures of this forum



I believe the owner did what was good for him and his dad!

And if many of you didn't get a shot at it or commission for flipping the info to your local
big wig ooops! Eek

Maybe he will just go to the local motel buyer! Big Grin

Bet he doesn't!

Some crappy pics doesn't get everyones neck
hair up for no reason!

Chill out and give the guy some air!

Attitude is whats killing the forums and
hobby!


Just my 2cents!

PVON

#60765 01/05/2006 03:00 AM
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Tom:
What "Mistake" did he make? I'd also suggest you go review the copyright laws in regards to pictures as I did before making a judgement about them.
I see the two principal human emotions here which tend to crop up in regards to any potential valuable item Fear and greed. There's fear that too much information has been given out and now that he knows the item is potentially valuable the greed factor kicks in.
I guess it's a measure of the society we live in today and the reason P.I lawyers are so successful.
If you or anyone else thinks this is more important than investigating this item from a historical perspective which I think is far more important than it's monetary value so be it.
Jim

#60766 01/05/2006 03:21 AM
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Wow wee. The guy really missed out. I would have paid 80 bucks and a gift certificate for the Pizza Hut. Wink

#60767 01/05/2006 04:03 AM
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Fear and Greed....

Sure those are 2 Very common feeling in the Human Emotion range...But in this case we need to just have the straight scoop not some half assed opinions of those less Knowledgeable.The Mistake word was maybe misused as its never a mistake to ask a question or for help.Concern over the items true Value is whats at stake here...again the owner pretty much said they are not going to run and hide...when they get the straight scoop we can all be Happy for them and Be Happy that the site was able to help generate a rare bird...other than the Numerous ones that I am sure we have never seen.

#60768 01/05/2006 05:47 PM
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I would say without a doubt that Greed leading to the Fear of not having a hand in it could have played a major factor in skoalmt's decision to pull everything. Would one be so bold as to ask him if he was coerced into that decision? And if he was, who was the likely party? Confused


"Endeavor to Persevere"
#60769 01/05/2006 10:29 PM
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Bob, I did "bother to read above" before posting my thoughts. And I would like to make it clear that this is not any kind of a personal attack. It is just my thought, and I would really appreciate you clarifying this to me. There is absolutely NO connection between how many times some photos were downloaded from your site and putting your name on the photos. I don't get it, I looked at your site and you complain of not having enough support from the collecting community to keep it open. I assume you mean financial support. I also assume that you are trying to draw some connection between the picture marking and the downloading due to it costing something for you to have that much bandwidth used for the downloads. If I am making sense so far, it occurs to me that maybe the photos would have been better left here where the forum is not under such a financial burden that the photos could be hosted without harm from members downloading. That way you would not have been subjected to the grief you getting due to your defacing them. I anxiously await an answer which logically makes sense, Please. If you have had the good fortune to purchase the dagger and/or the photos from the person who originally posted them, I have no problems with that, although some here may. If that is the case, the photos, and the dagger, are, and should be, yours to control as you see fit! If that is not the case then it doesn't make any sense to me that you would shoulder the burden of hosting the photos, make everyone angry here by having them removed from here, and then complain that they are getting downloaded from your site. I await respectfully for your reply.


"Don't crush that Dwarf! Hand ME the Pliers."
Frank Zappa
#60770 01/06/2006 10:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jim m:

I see the two principal human emotions here which tend to crop up in regards to any potential valuable item Fear and greed.


Oh yeah. There were ample amounts of both fear and greed present, but not from the owner but from the vultures. Fear that an "historical" (read valuable) item would go to someone else, and greed that it maight have gone cheaply.

Put it this way. I seriously doubt that if a big name dealer had advertised the piece at a fair market price that he would have been inundated with emails like the present owner.

#60771 01/06/2006 10:18 PM
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I agree with that, if a Top tier dealer listed it for what its worth no one would have emailed him unless they where very well off. But I very sure many emailed him at the beginning trying for a cheap price "but" everyone knows about it now and the big concern is why can we keep the pictures here after all "We" Identified it can "We" enjoy to look at it. Hell something about this just don't smell right. First thing its a dagger not the crown jewel and the only people that give a damn it still exist is Us the collectors, why can we atleast enjoy the pictures of something we love, and the rest of the world could give two sh-ts about Confused Confused Yea its worth alot of money, Roll Eyes so is alot of other stuff. Showing pictures whats the "SIN". I yern to learn Wink I am sure this will be on Unsolved Mysterys. Roll Eyes

#60772 01/07/2006 02:30 AM
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Im still a bit confused here as well guys, but lets not start attacking each other over this. Obivioulsy there are some strong opinions here, and that's fine. Just try to not let it get personal.

Oh, and 3-finger-louie, I got rid of the post you said you misdirected for you.

Tyrel

#60773 01/07/2006 02:56 AM
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Thanks Tyrel! Greatly appreciated! L


"Don't crush that Dwarf! Hand ME the Pliers."
Frank Zappa
#60774 01/07/2006 12:55 PM
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Louie..what's dem bikes? Indians?

Mark Cool

#60775 01/07/2006 02:26 PM
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Yessir! The one on the right is a 1936 Indian Chief, the one on the left is a 1946 Indian Chief, and the one in the middle is a 1953 Indian Rider. "You can't wear out an Indian Scout, or it's big brother, The Chief. Built like Rocks, to take hard Knocks. It's them Harleys that cause all the Grief!" ;^)


"Don't crush that Dwarf! Hand ME the Pliers."
Frank Zappa
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