UBB.threads

Hi All:

As a follow-up to my posting about the qualifications for receiving an Ehrendolch, I have re-examined an earlier post (http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/477091573/m/9230005855) about the unground Röhm SS dagger currently offered for sale at ADFMilitaria.com (item 10099). I have received numerous inquiries about this dagger and want to share an update of my thoughts since this serves to show the new era of collecting that is now emerging: an era that is now supplementing opinion with documentation. The dagger is numbered and identified to Sturmbannführer Horst Schürer. Numerous collectors examined it at the recent Max Show and it appeared to not raise any questions. However, the documentary evidence does raise some important issues. In this case there are numerous records available on Schührer by which we can judge the artifact. In my original posting, I mentioned that, though his personnel record card recorded that he did not receive an Enrendolch, he qualified for one. I want to now revise that statement.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

As mentioned previously, his Stammrollen notes that he had not received an Ehrendolch. We also see that he did not enter the SS as a SS Mann until 1 May 1932 past the required date of service on or before 31 December 1931. But perhaps he was an exception having been a member of the SA or HJ during thre required time period before joining the SS.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

Among the forms filed as part of his "Race & Settlement File" (all SS men and their potential partners had to have their racial purity certified before marriage) was his personal questionnaire (Fragebogen). This document clearly shows that he did not indicate membership in either the SA or HJ which could have qualified him to receive the Ehrendolch since he did not meet the 31 December 1931 membership criteria.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

So we have an interesting collecting anomaly. How he ended up with an unground Röhm is a question that we can probably never fully answer. But I have wanted to bring attention to this, in part, for the benefit of those who still adhere to the credo of "Don't confuse my collecting with the facts, I just want the stuff" school of collecting. As prices escalate for great stuff, the emergence of better and more indepth research will increasingly play an important role in this market place as it has for sometime now in the Civil War as well as other collecting fields.

Enjoy!
Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

Interesting information, Ross. In addition, I found further information on wiking.ruf.com., with information copywrited by Peter J. Hertel. Schurer was a mechanic from Dresden, born September 12, 1910. He was one of 117 SS members selected by Sepp Dietrich for the Sonderkommando Berlin (Special Detail Berlin) in March,1933. So, he would have been 22 at the time. The unit (Stabswache) were headquarter guards for Hitler's chancery. This unit was the first officially recognized branch of the SS. Later that year, Hitler recognized the unit at a NSDAP rally naming it the LSSAH, and, on November 9, 1933, made it official that the unit was to be loyal only to him and removed them from other superiors in the SS. As to the numbers on the dagger, I will leave whether they are authentic or not to others. They look authentic and that they also appear on the scabbard throat seems, arguably, to bolster such. Given the aspects of the dagger itself, why would anybody add fake numbers? I don't see that such would add any significant value to a full Rohm SS with an early trademark. It would appear the dagger was likely among the earlier presented pieces. Perhaps Schurer was "fast tracked" into the SS for unknown reasons. He must have impressed somebody to have been chosen by Dietrich as 1 of 117 for a very prestigious position.

To me it almost looks like the numbers have been put on the crossguard first then somewhene went oh dear we have forgot to put the group mark on, so we will put it over here on the left.

Just odd i have never ever seem a group mark a mile off centre like that has anyone else?

Hi Mongo i have two SS daggers with the group mark way off centre Im sure other collectors must have seen them as well.

Right, hixxy 1. They are seen from time to time. I was wondering if the awards listed on the second page, above, might help bracket Schurer's background some.

quote:

Originally posted by Ross Kelbaugh (SS-Researcher):
This document clearly shows that he did not indicate membership in either the SA or HJ which could have qualified him to receive the Ehrendolch since he did not meet the 31 December 1931 membership criteria.

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

So am I to understand that the SS officer whos Rohm dagger we see was according to the documents you found was not qualified to to receive one?
And have you ever had such an occurance on any other Rohm SS dagger?

Regards,
-serge-

Hi Serge:

That is correct. According to the documents, Shürer was not qualified to receive a Röhm dagger. This is the first anomaly like this I have encountered. Mongobongo makes a good point that apparently the SS number was applied before the distribution center number was added. Also note the "0" benchmark.

Regards,

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

Impossible to say whether district stamp done after number.District stamp not always central also orientation varies my take would be someone found a naughty nazis number and added it to the dagger not knowing what Ross has now found out that 54361 wasnt entitled to a Rohm dagger

As a refresher, here is an order that I posted a while back for 32 Röhm daggers and 1 dienstdolch being placed by the 41. SS Standarte which includes the engraving of SS numbers. This would appear to give credence to the possibility that SS numbers could have been applied before the distribution center numeral as seen on dagger 54 361.

Regards,

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

I'm not sure it is correct to say he was not qualified for the dagger. The SA information on one document is left blank, which could mean any number of things, such as he did not recall the SA dates, did not think the information was necessary, wished to disassociate himself with the SA, etc. Of course, it could also mean he was not a member of the SA. As to whether he was in the HJ is unknown. The other document shows he was not awarded the dagger. As well as I can tell, he was barely in the SS one year prior to being selected by Dietrich for Hitler's bodyguard. To me, that indicates he held some special status or sway with Dietrich, at least, especially being a mechanic. It does not appear he was from elite German society, as were many SS members, especially officers. Unless he had considerable influence, to be a one-year member of the SS and to be selected 1 of 117, indicates he was highly regarded and trusted. As to the offset district mark, I have no problem at all with that and I think Ross's document helps to substantiate that such marks and serial numbers were stamped into the guards at the same time, at least for some daggers. It seems to me, although there are indications to the contrary, that whether Schurer actually owned or was presented the dagger is left open. By all accounts, the dagger itself is authentic and is priced in the appropriate range for such a dagger in its condition. In my eye, the numbers on the guard and scabbard throat appear to be of the period, but certainly, someone with a proper set of dies could have stamped them in at any time. Again, I see no reason for that to have occurred, since adding numbers to such a dagger does not appreciably increase its value. If you are going to fake some numbers, go for an SS "big name" in order to make the dagger more attractive.

With respect a Sturmbannfuhrer in Hitlers personal body guard would rate as a "big SS name " in most peoples book.
we will never know when or by who the number was applied but I agree the style of stamping looks period

The Race & Settlement Fragebogen was a very important document in establishing the applicant's background for being "pure" enough to marry. The spaces for stating the time span for service in the SA and the Hitler Youth left blank were no small thing since this was essential information provided by the applicant. Also note that these were not filed in on the reverse of his SS Officer personnel file card.

Regards,
Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

You all might find his Dienstlaufbahn (service career record) of interest as well in case you have never seen one. This is from his SS Officer File.

Regards,
Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

clearly that SS number was not eligable for this dagger however you cut it???

Change of blade or crossguards at some time?

Might actually all be legit. Unfortunately, it remains a mystery to explain the conflict with the documentation at this time. Attached is the front of his SS Officer Personnel Card since I posted the back.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh
www.ssdaggers.com

The crossguard is on the wrong way,the number
and district mark should be on the reverse.
Or is it my eyes
Regards
John

Mongo how can you say the crossguard is not original to this dagger. Grip to crossguard is a tight fit and blade to crossguard is a good fit. Numbers look to be period done so what makes you say the crossguard is incorrect. Surely a changed crossguard would not show these characteristics.

I was just stating what the position could be, as that service number in no way shape or form should be on that dagger. These were issued on a strict and specific criteria for a very short period of time in Feb 34 to those who had been in continual service since 1931.

People tranfering from the Hitler Youth who had been in service since that time also qualified.

According to the official research that Ross has posted our man would not have qualified on either count.

If it were mine I would be thinking what the possibilities would have been.

1. The reich somehow decided that this chap for an unknown reason should have a Full Rohm even if he did not qualify.

2. The number was punched post war maybe to increase the saleabilty or value of the piece.

3. The crossguards and or grip somehow ended up configured with a full Rohm blade and were issued originally on a non rohm dagger.

Perhaps we will never know?, if I owned it or was buying it, I would definately be sending it to one of the experts for a hands on inspection and written opinion just to be on the safe side . At least then you know for sure that it is spot on and will probably sleep a bit better at night knowing the reich made a mistake and not you!.

The question is why anyone would want to spend that kind of money where the documents do not show that this recipient was entitled to the Rohm Honor dagger?

Like Ross says it may still be legit but...
Just imagine the explaining you would have to do.

Regards,
-serge-

Schurer in the Hitlerjugend Division (in the middle). Prototypical Aryan/

Third from left, front row. HJ Div. command staff

Sorry. Photo would not load.

Grumpy
I went to the site "wiking.ruf.com" but could not find his name on the listing...could you post the link

Sorry I posted before I was finished.

Thanks for your help Grumpy.

Regards
Sepp GDC 0292 Gold

It looks like Fritz Witt in the foreground.
Perhaps when he just got elevated to command the HJ division. Was that April 1944? Because he's a Gruppenfuhrer here.

Regards,
-serge-

Sepp, for some reason, it's difficult to get to it. Try www.wiking.ruf.com/new_intro.html. Interesting information about the early LSSAH.