#59431
12/11/2007 11:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
There are so many different kinds of tunics... Is there a site that'll break it down in a list forum? For each division and each rank and so on?
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#59432
12/12/2007 02:46 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439 |
what are you trying to figure out?
There are some basic styles, based on first year of production (M36,M40, M42, M43, 44, etc) that progressed as the war went on, any one could theoretically be used by any division and any rank that existed within those years. They were also frequently modified by their owners.
There are a few good books on the subject: Cloth insignia of the SS SS regalia Uniforms of the SS and certainly several others, but I know of no dedicated site.
"for those who seek salvation easily...there is little comfort to be had from the great teachers"-Walt Lippman
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#59433
12/12/2007 12:41 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
I guess what I'm looking for is...
What was the tunic's name that the SS wore on a daily basis? Their standard duty uniform I guess you could say.
Look up any of the SS leaders and they are wearing different tunic's in their photo's. I know there must be like a parade tunic, duty tunic, and so on like the police have today, but could someone tell me which one is what?
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#59434
12/12/2007 12:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 226 |
quote: Originally posted by Marker227: I guess what I'm looking for is...
What was the tunic's name that the SS worse on a daily basis? Their standard duty uniform I guess you could say.
Unless you can be more specific, that simple question is not so simple. When you say "SS," are you talking about Allgemeine or Waffen SS? When you say "on a daily basis," are you talking about in garrison, at drill, or in the field? What sort of unit are you talking about, performing what sort of duties, at what time of year, in what region or climate? The "basic" uniform could be any one of a number of styles, many of which were made in different models over the years. The subject fills many volumes.
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#59435
12/12/2007 01:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
I'll try to be more specific. Can you tell me why Himmler has a variation of tunic's and do you know the names of them? And when I said duty uniform I meant, what do the SS Generals/Guards wear in the field. When they are on-duty. I'm trying to learn about the differences in tunics to expand my knowledge of WWII history. Try these links. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Himmler3.pnghttp://www.earthstation1.com/WWIIPics/Germany/HeinrichHimmlerSalutesSS.jpgI'm guessing one tunic is parade and one is not? If so, are they the same tunic, but different color? I guess I can't be so general with the term SS. I wasn't aware that every SS Leader/General was broken into a division within the SS. I thought there was like the title "Head of SS" which would make me believe there was a general kind of tunic. Heh, I'm learning already .
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#59436
12/12/2007 11:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439 |
what you are seeing on Himmler is one black tunic, for the Allgemine-SS, and a field grey tunic for the Waffen-SS.
Generally, the Allgemine SS was a pre-war force, and they wore the black tunics ( not only for parade but also for "duty"). but there also were still a few "blackies" around during the war. The Waffen-SS started out as the SS-VT, and wore field grey tunics. The cut of the tunic varied, Enlisted men were issued uniforms while officers had to buy their own, creating an even bigger variance in style & cut. Many were tailored afterward as well. I have a Waffen SS cavalry officer tunic that was shortened, as it was the style of the time and more practical when on a horse.
But about 6 shelves of my library are devoted to the SS. it is a complex subject with conflicting regulations.
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#59437
12/13/2007 12:01 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439 |
Here is a black one I own.
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#59438
12/13/2007 12:26 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
So does that mean each Division of the SS has it's own unique style of tunic?
I like your first tunic. It's in good condition and looks a little nicer than black. Very surprised you have a matching visor.
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#59439
12/13/2007 01:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439 |
The black tunic was quite effective in the pre war days, with a certain "panache" hearkening back to days of the Imperial German Hussars. The field green tunic was created out of utility and to gain some respect from the Army, who didn't see the SS as much more than "asphalt soldiers" (until they actually got into combat with them, then they thought they were all nuts)
But its not so much a divisional thing, as it is a time frame thing. Things changed in very general time frame sections: Early (33-36), Pre-War (37-39), early war (40-41) Mid war (42-43) late war (44-45) and the often seen dreaded post war (46-today) as the war progressed, certain resources dwindled, and you see the material quality levels fall.
Although some SS division had their own unique things, the like the Handschar Division and a few others wore the Fez as they were Muslims. The rest pretty much wore the same uniforms as the others. There were always anomalies, usually by high ranking individuals- Sepp Detrich somes to mind. But for most it was regulations and availability that dictated the style of tunic worn.
Again I would recommend getting some books on the subject, as it is a varied & complex issue. Even some of the $9.99 Osprey series has some good information.
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#59440
12/13/2007 07:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
That's very interesting. I had no idea it was like this.
How much do Peaked SS Visors run these days?
The black visor with skull and eagle on the top is the death heads division?
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#59441
12/13/2007 11:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439 |
The visors are also broken into 2 categories: waffen SS(green) & Allgemine SS(black), with officers and & enlisted versions in each.
All SS units wore the skull & eagle, the "deathshead" division wore a skull collar tab (again, going back to the traditions of the Hussars)
As for prices; "if you have to ask..." but around $4K-10K+ is the range for a REAL one. (fakes can be had for a slight discount)
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#59442
12/14/2007 03:34 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
That's so expensive....
Where should I start?
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#59443
12/14/2007 01:29 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439 |
Buy some reference books, Go to shows, search the forums, find some knowledgeable collectors, and reputable dealers that will allow you to look at their stuff. Be sure to have anything checked out BEFORE you buy, but also make sure they stand by their return policies. Any dealer that is sure of his stuff will not mind the scrutiny.
Collecting SS is not for the faint of heart, it is quite expensive and it certainly can be a mine field. But it makes finding those rare original gems all that more special. Good luck-
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#59444
12/14/2007 04:27 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149 |
Actually Jerry, after 1938, when the Allgemeine-SS switched over to the military gray-green, they too started to wear the gray-green covers on their headgear, thus, after 1938 you cannot categorically state that gray-green was Waffen-SS (only). Just a heads up...
Bill
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#59445
12/14/2007 08:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
I'm only 18 and I don't have tons of money. I'm sort of worried that when I'm in my 20's and I have more, things are going to be even more rare and even more expensive...
My main thing is to get a hat or tunic, but obviously I can't have that now due to funds.
I might have to start with a 9mm Luger which would run about 700-900 on a gun site (I've seen a few in that range).
These are the things I'm interested in.
Iron Cross Visor Armband Tunic Dagger Luger M44 Helmet (way too expensive and rare)
I'd like to have all of it for my WWII collection, but you can't have everything in life :P.
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#59446
12/14/2007 11:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439 |
Well you're taking the time to learn and that is the important thing.
I have seen many older guys with tons of money that have been taken to the cleaners by unscrupulous dealers, and they still don't learn. It is better to have a smaller collection of originals than a large collection of questionable pieces.
You have a good plan, all of those items are certainly obtainable. Take your time, buy the nicest pieces you can afford, and you can always sell off to upgrade a piece.
We'll all be here to help along the way.
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#59447
12/15/2007 03:11 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149 |
Might I suggest that you look at Army waffenrocks, as well as Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine dress jackets. These are priced right and will be going up, especially because of the recent book written about them. That way you could get into collecting earlier. It's not SS, but it's some really nice Third Reich German militaria.
Bill
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#59448
12/15/2007 04:10 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
Where's a good place to get these items?
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#59449
12/15/2007 06:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 218
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 218 |
Buy quality. Might cost more but is more liquid.
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#59450
12/15/2007 08:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 445
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 445 |
I think you have been given very good advice. Militaria collecting has turned into a big business. If you search the internet you will find a hugh number of dealers offering anything you want. But understand, the reason certain historical items command a high price to hold is because they are very very rare. I hope you look at this site closely before you buy anything expensive. There is a great deal of information for you here.... and caution. Regards.
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#59451
12/17/2007 10:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
I really appreciate all this help. You're all so helpful.
Has anyone of you bought any signatures from any high ranking officers? I saw Himmlers and it was like 900...Sheesh.
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#59452
12/23/2007 01:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
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#59453
12/24/2007 02:50 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149 |
You can buy post-war autographed photos of many of the Knight's Cross winners for a reasonable price, around $45 or so. The guys with the Oakleaves and Swords maybe a bit more. The wartime postcards that are signed are considerably more -- often over $100 and up to a couple of thousand, depending upon who it is. Be careful there too as there are many fakes, even post-war signed photos...
Bill
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#59454
12/24/2007 10:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286 |
Marker, there are some great deals to be had here on our forum..to buy and sell there, requires you to purchase a one year membership.
It may well be the best value for money you see all year!
As well, some of the best collecting minds frequent these forums, and are usually available to answer questions.
One of the first things i would do if you like SS items, is to puchase John Angolias 'Cloth insignia of the SS' It's one of the real 'bibles' in the SS collecting world..
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#59455
01/05/2008 11:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
If I'm not mistaken, each sub division of the SS has their own uniform correct? Like obviously the SS 12th Panzer Division have different service tunics than the SS Boarder Police.
What about this...
Did they all have the same parade tunic?
Was there like a standard SS parade tunic?
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#59456
01/06/2008 06:18 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149 |
The Waffen-SS was unlike the traditional German Army with a long history of pomp and ceremony. The Waffen-SS was born into war and therefore didn't have the long history. They did not have parade (or waffenrock) uniforms like the Army, Navy and Air Force. The Waffen-SS consisted of some 45 divisions, although most from 38-45 were nothing more than headquarters companies and brigades; never reached full divisional strength. Some divisions, and regiments within the divsions, had names and were authorized a cuffband. Many others did not. They used several uniforms over the war years, becoming simplier in manufacturing as the war made demands on materials. They used the M36, the classic SS M37, M40, M42, M43 and M44. The early inductees into the 4. SS-Polizei-Division wore their police uniforms but with SS insignia during a transition period. There is a distinctive 'police-green' compared to the Waffen-SS 'gray-green', which was the same as worn by the Army.
Bill
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#59457
02/08/2008 02:41 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
The Army waffenrocks jackets are nice but I can't find any on ebay or on other sites.
Why are these cheaper than a M34 Combat Tunic?
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#59458
02/08/2008 06:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 542
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 542 |
Here's an idea. Since you seem to like SS items, paper items are still quite reasonable. Someone suggested postcards, autographed or otherwise. Great idea!! The SS periodical, "SS Leitheft" and the SS newspaper, "Das Schwarze Corps" are both fairly abundant, and very reasonable, especially by SS standards. Original, period photographs and photographic portraits are another way to go that is fairly inexpensive. These guys have given excellent advice. Remember, you're better off with a simple original SS photograph than a fake SS general's cap. Besides, a period photograph is far more personal than other items. Best of luck.
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#59459
02/08/2008 07:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286 |
Hi Marker..the most common infantry (white piped) waffenrock come up it seems every two weeks on Ebay..just keep your eyes open and check everyday!...
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#59460
02/08/2008 09:02 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149 |
Normally I don't endorse any particular dealer but if you want to look at some nice Waffenrock tunics, check www.therupturedduck.com, Bill Shea. Bill
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#59461
02/08/2008 11:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 380
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 380 |
whoua Nice Uniform !!! sebastian.
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#59462
02/11/2008 02:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
Sheesh, this is all way too expensive for me :P.
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#59463
05/03/2008 10:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
My focus has changed to a waffenrock. I ordered a book on it today. I really want to buy one.
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#59464
05/04/2008 01:35 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149 |
A wise choice!
Good luck, Bill
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#59465
05/04/2008 01:42 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
I'm still having trouble finding "the one" I like. I don't have many links online to places to view the ones for sale.
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#59466
05/04/2008 10:02 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 149 |
Try the eStand on the WAF, Bill Shea (The Ruptured Duck) and Peter Whamond (The Collectors Guild). And take your time...
Bill
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#59467
05/06/2008 01:07 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
There are too many of them . Not sure which one I like most! Nor do I know if what price they are asking is fair. Whats the deal with the two little holes on the right breast? I've seen them in the same spot on a lot of Waffenrocks.
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#59468
05/06/2008 02:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 713
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 713 |
They are loops (not holes) for ribbon bars, so you don't have to pin them through the material. They will be farther apart for longer bars.
You will often find several sets on uniforms for different badges and awards, and their position and size are often a clue as to the wearer's awards.
Cheers,
Stephen Gold Party Pin Website: http://pages.interlog.com/~sjl/GPB
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#59469
05/06/2008 10:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,889 Likes: 2
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,889 Likes: 2 |
What branch/waffenfarb are you looking for? Artillery/red is the most common. Panzer/pink is the most desireable and there for expensive. I've seen them for as a low of $750 on up to $2-3000. As with everything else, condition matters.
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#59470
05/07/2008 03:02 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141 |
I thought this color was really nice, as well as the orange.(like the one i posted above) Other than that, I have no idea . The Ruptured Duck and The Collectors Guide have very few Waffenrocks.
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