UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum MARINE SA

OPINIONS ON THIS SA MARINE WILL BE APPRECIATED. GOOD OR BAD????

2ND

3RD

4TH

5TH

6TH

The interior of the parts, are marked ST

8th

Too many problems to be good.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I don't like the Herder Blade and the crossgraining looks bad. -wagner-

hello vesuvio for me sure this blade is a very know FAKE!
regards
patrick

Blade aside... what other problems are there?

Thank you guys. I was not holding my breath on this one. I appreciate the help. It will be returned.

Can someone please tell me exactly what is wrong with the blade, please.
I have a Herder that, as I recall, (not infront of me) looks like the one pictured above. Now I am nervious .
I was unaware of this "well known fake"...
Thanks in advance,
Johnny

Is the tang hole in that grip rectangular? The tang is recently ground as the grind marks indicate. These are signs of a possible 'tune up'. I think the scabbard looks recently painted as well, it does appear too shiny to be as old as it should be. Just my quick observations.

Mark

The blade looks OK to me apart of the condition Why is it a fake?

Shape of the tang maybe?

All of mine look like this one...

Other than the blade and maybe the paint job on the scabbard, I can't see what else is wrong?

The rest looks like a Marine SA to me.

My grip...

When looking at an early SA/SS/NSKK you should consider the following when determining originality:
1. Does the overall condition/wear/scratches to the finish of the nickel fittings match the condition of the scabbard finish and grip wear-in this case it does not.
2. Does the blade have the original crossgraining/wear or is there some rounding to the blade surface and do the letters in the motto reflect a rounding to the edges and is the finish of the interior motto look undisturbed-in case the blade appears re-grained or not original factory grinding. Also the darkening to the motto and TM appear to not match the condition of the fittings.
3. Is the blade tang uniformly dark and original-in this case the tang has been freshly ground to fit crossguards that are not original to the blade. Also the grinding has reached the surface of the blade near the TM.
4. Does the scabbard paint is too bright for the wear on the grip eagle/fittings/crossguards. It ain't original period.
5. Overall are you happy with the total package-no.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron... what are your thoughts on the scabbard that I've shown then, compared to the rest of the dagger, from the points you've made above?

Also, with reference to your point 1 only... if the scabbard has been repainted, which is more than likely, then would it not be too difficult to match up the overall condition of the rest of the scabbard fittings?

... and... do you think the blade in question is a fake, if so, why? Is it the tang?

There are "known" reproduction blades with this TM (I am not so sure about this statement that many collectors make), but the blade in this thread does not exhibit what I would consider original factory crossgraining.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
PS: My comments on the scabbard in my previous post are enough for me on this dagger and subject.

No thoughts on my dagger shown or is there not enough photos to go on?

... and the blade in question, is it considered to be a repro because the crossgrain doesn't look like it came from the factory? It has nothing to do with the tang then? Couldn't the blade have been polished or messed with in some way, where it's ruined the original crossgrain? If so, then couldn't the blade still be original?

i think its an SA thats been repainted black to make it look like an nskk because no one can get the original brown finish right. i also have a herder sa with a very dark grip.

Yes , herder blades are well known fakes , but i don't know for sure about this blade in the thread , perhaps Dave can take a look .But my other sudy , as seany says , the most ( because all ?)herder grips a very dark .
@ sdp : i like your dagger !

Thanks deutscher...

I too am interested in other people's opinion for the dagger in question.

I personally stay away from the Herder "crossed keys" blade on any dagger. But that is me. Why? Well I never found one where I was 100% certain that it was period "installed" on a dagger. I would like to hear if Ron ever found one from a vet? Here's what Tom Wittmann has to say about this blade in his SS book, page 23.
"The mark of F. Herder firm with crossed keys logo, appearing on the reverse ricasso area of a SS dagger. A quantity of original unmounted blades bearing this producer's etched name and trademark has surfaced in recent years, and complete daggers have been seen in the marketplace, where previously they were unknown. It is difficult to determine whether examples were actually "period" produced with this trademark".
That's said on SS marked daggers. Now SA's? Same? -wagner-
problem?

Yes, in the past I have found a crossed key Herder directly from a veteran. Unfortunately it was an SA in not too good condition and, as I don't collect by maker, it is long gone.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Tom Johnson used to sell crossed key Herder blades some years ago. They were left over stock. A collector friend of mine bought one and, after some polishing, came out pretty bright with a very sharply defined motto. But I seriously doubt that this blade is on of these because the motto shows some signs of 'dishing'. For this reason I believe this blade as well as the whole dagger is original.
The difference in the finish of the fittings could very well be attributable to frequent handling and disassembly, dropping a fitting in the process, using the wrong tools or materials for cleaning, etc. This could all be fixed. These daggers are just too rare to pass up and the chances of finding another one that is in immaculate shape, totally untouched, original patina, no rust and oxidation are about like winning in a big lottery.

The blades that Tom Johnson and Gailen David had were SS blades, NOT SA blades - to the best of my knowledge. If anyone has info about loose SA blades by F Herder, please post as I think that would be new info.

The quote from TJ's SS book posted above by Serge is speaking about my F.Herder SS dagger. If you look back in the SS Dagger Forum, you will see the subject has been discussed a couple of times. We can do it again if you like

Dave

Dave, I'll check out the posts, thanks. Do you suggest that the dagger "Gods" TW und TJ could error?
-wagner-

Serge,

I didn't see any errors. Tom Johnson and Gailen David sold them, as I remember, as unmounted or unfinished blades found in a factory. I owned one of those and it did not look quite right as far as finish and shape. The crossed keys on the tang were barely visible. I suspect that they were quality control rejects, but who know. I sold mine a few years ago.

As far as Tom Wittmann's book, that is my dagger illustrated, and I agreed then and still agree now with what he said. There is an open question.

Dave

I have always been convinced that these blades were original. About 4 or 5 years ago someone ( I don't dremember who it was)suggested that the blades were fake without offering any details, i.e. firing from the hip. In response I challenged the person by saying: Are you suggesting that Tom Johnson is selling fake blades as originals? Thats when Gailen responded with the details surrounding those blades.
Everytime someone frivolously drops a suggestion of that sort it doesn't take very long and everybody repeats that garbage as fact.

Herr Hohaus: When these blades were sold by TJ several of my friends bought them and had me replace the rusty and deteriorated blades in some of their M36s. There was no TM on the blade at all but as far as I can remember there was some mark on the tang. After cleaning these blades with white rouge they looked every bit as good as any minty SS blade. They must have been stored for other reasons but they were certainly not rejects.
F. Herder & Sohn was never assigned an RZM code for whatever reason we don't know. Maybe they pooled up with one of the other Herder facilities since they were all related.

Well, it the blade is original, about the rest of the dagger? Scabbard, Grip, Crossguard (marked ST). Thanks

The blades I saw were SS blades with the F. Herder trademark on the reverse and they were not rusty. I am not aware of any blades with no makers.

Dave

hi i hope i can add some fuel to this fire,i hope my pics show up ok,as you can see this is not mint came from a vet with another plenty of age and nicotine,the first pic shows a very good fit to the crossguard and blade,the runner marks look great ,i have handled quite a few sa daggers and i would not doubt this is %100 untampered if that is the right word,on the second pic the spidering on the scabbard is super,there is something about time aging as well as mint, are we saying herders with cross keys did not exist or they are a dagger that are widely altered,i must say not many are seen this side of the atlantic,mcsarr 4 seems low and we dont have many pics of them on this thread.The etching on this blade is deep and precise.Unlike my punctuation on this write up,really should have listened at school.
thankyou diplomatt

Herr Hohaus: You got this all wrong again. I have here TJ catalog #86, (Fall 1999) page 212, where he sells SA blades, Herder crossed key marked, for $195. The bin number was 15382. Shame on you, Herr Hohaus, for always gettin' it wrong.

And, Herr Hohaus, the unmarked M36 blades were listed right above, bin # 15381, marked with crossed keys on the tang, for $595 plus tax and handling. You done missed it again.