UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum MARINE SA

Well Manfred thanks for showing us "The Smoking Gun". I think Dave was looking to find if the "Herder SA Crossed Key Blade" was offered in the "bare" as the SS was. Thanks to you we have the answer.
I always wondered when I came across these Herder's why the blades were always in such nice condition?
Now, how can you tell a period blade, to a TJ special? On a SA? Can anyone?
-wagner-

Wagner: You can't because thes blades were original leftover war stock. They were never installed on daggers. Until recently dagger parts, some finished others unfinished, surfaced at bankruptcy sales in Germany. Because they were never installed and in use these blades are generally in mint condition.

Well that finally settles it for me. I always avoided these anyway but just wasn't 100% sure. Since on the SA's vet source Herder's, like in Ron's and Diplo matt's case, do turn up on rare occasion. But it seems like the other 97% seem to be the "TJ special's"? And then on the SS "crossed keys Herder" ? Does anyone out there have a "foot locker" or "duffel
bag" Vet source SS CK-Herder? Then what are the consensus here guys? Seems like Dave agrees with the above quote of TW regarding the SS version. I think they are "Parts Jobs" myself.
What say the rest of you ?? Thanks All! -wagner-

One thing to keep in mind as you are thinking through Serge's question is:

You cannot have "leftover war stock" unless the types of blades in question were being actively produced and used in daggers at the time.

Dave

Herr Hohaus: According to TJ and Gailen these blades were produced prior to 1945. So what would you call those? Postwar discovered reproductions made before 1945?
There are original F.Herder & Sohn SS, SA and Luftwaffe daggers out there and I have seen some myself.

Wagner: What do you mean by smoking gun? In earlier catalogs Tom Johnson (and other sources) had original blades made by Eickhorn, WKC, Alcoso etc.as well as RMZ marked for sale. There were also sword blades left over from the TR era. If those are all 'smoking guns' than nearly every sword and dagger in any collection is suspect. Many daggers and swords along the way have been parted out and recombined with other parts to make a new dagger or sword.
Thus, those who want to be absolutely sure whether their hardware is totally unadulterated, containing the same parts since day one, untouched etc. won't do much collecting because their is always that nagging question.

Hi Manfred, What I was refering to was the statement made by Tom Wittmann that the Cross Keyed Herder logo SS blade has not been encountered on complete daggers up until the Herder blade horde was located in Solingen by, I believe, Tom Johnson.
Now if there is, as you say, a period SS Crossed Keyed Herder assembled prior to 1945, I would like to hear about that. Maybe someone has one also? Why do we find so many early pre-RZM blades but no "Period with provenance" assembled daggers? This does not seem to be the case with the SA blade. Do you agree? Or what has your experience showed regarding this? I'm just saying that there are no absolutes. I'm learning and asking some questions. Thanks, -wagner-