UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum "Bad Tolz" and other VT/TK insignia

Hello, Here are some recent pick-ups I thought that everyone would like to see. First, we have a EM tab for "Bad Tolz" officer canidate school. This tab took me a while to find, but now my set is complete. Jim Toncar, if you are viewing I would very much like to see your tabs. Also, I am trying to remember if there was one made in "block" lettering with a small "T". If so, then the hunt continues.

The back side. Paper tag is missing.

All three tabs. The officers tab with the large "block" "T" came out of a hotel buy about two years ago. The officers tab with the "gothic" "T" came from Mr. Jenkins.

back sides.

Next we have some early rune tabs to "Deutschland", "Germania", and "Der Fuhrer".

Back sides of tabs.

Here are two sets of "Germania" boards. The one set is a perfect match, but the other w/o piping is slightly different. notice the "G"'s one has more pointed ends, but both came from same tunic.

backs of boards.

Here is another recent pick-up this week. A "Totenkopf" nco tab for Dacau.

back side of TK tab.

The last pick-up. A "Totenkopf" nco sleeve diamond.

back of diamond. If anyone else would like to post any early VT/TK insignia please do so. Would love to see what else is out there. Grant

Great thread Grant.Thanks for posting these examples.If you have examples...could you start-off a thread on SS-VT enlisted cufftitles?Specifically pre-war examples.I dont have any or I would.But I would be very interested in studying the actual pre-war titles worn by SS-VT enlisted personnel.Thanks,Dave T.

Grant, many thanks for posting such rar insignias on the forum. This are so rar and very hard to find SS cloth insignias. I would also be very happy to get anyday the chance to find such insignias for my collection.
Gratualtions Grant !

Wooow....

I have to quote Howard Carter when asked by Lord Carnavon if seeing anything after having broken the seal to Thutankamuns tomb;

I see wonderful things!

Very nice and rare stuff shown! Beyond the reach for us normal collectors!

Thanks for sharing!

//Felix

Thanks for the replys. Dave, I have some nice examples that I will get some pics of and post soon,ok. Grant

but H. Carter received an Aspergillus flavus breeze thru the broken sealing, this cloth items are much more healthy for the collector world.

Hi Grant ,
I sent you a scan of my Tolz tabs, in answer to your question the Tolz tab does exsist with the smaller "T" in the block form . This is a very hard tab to get , I have only seen one a number of years ago .
Jim

Here are the officer's school Tolz cufftitles.
Jim

Thanks for showing Grant!

Jim

Here is your pic a little bigger!

PVON

Thanks for showing Grant!

Just amazing!

Jim

Here is yours a little bigger!

Also amazing!

PVON

Oh my...
You guys are killing me here,
stunning...just stunning....

Here is my humble addition to this show. Picked it up earlier this year.

Greg

Back side and tag.

Greg

Absolutely stunning insignia. Thanks for sharing.

the "creme de la creme" for SS cloth collectors. And one of the hardest to find ones are shown here on those view posts. You guys know well what you have in your collection.

Thanks for sharing it guys

Dear Grant,
The bullion VT and TV insignia items you have posted are superb. Very rare items indeed. Obviously low rez digital pictures are misleading posted on the web but are you 100% comfortable with the enlisted "T" and Deutschland tabs? The stitching and configuration of the runes, especially seen on the close-up of the "T", seems a bit off.
Maybe it's just my old and tired eyes.
Derek

Interesting. Ok, Since this is a discussion forum, let's find out who and where these tabs are made? Show me one firm that is currently making repro tabs such as these (same quality)? Better yet! let us see some pictures of these high quality tabs. I not mad, but I just want to see proof. Let me show you some of my comparisions. Pictured are the two tabs along with two tabs that I personally purchased from two different U.S. veterans from different areas in the United States. I have the liberty of holding the pieces in hand and I understand that the only thing you have to go is the pics, but I can assure you that the construction and the type of thread is the same.

backs of tabs

Sorry about that! That last pic showed a close-up of the thread.

Here are some more early insignia. John I have also added, per your request, some pics of VT and early war RZM Em cuff titles.

backs.

more.

backs of tabs.

scull em tabs.

scull em backs.

scull diamonds.

Ok, John here are your cuff titles you wanted to see. IMO your pre-war bands were narrower in width and the aluminum borders are tighter. Look at the pics and you will see what I mean. The "Germania" gothic band shown is IMO made early or mid-war period. The "SS Schule Tolz" band came out of a huge score Hotel buy in Bluefield, WV. some extremely rare Totenkopf cuff bands were in that group as well. By the way the group is pictured in the latest war booty book by Schiffler books. enjoy.

Deutschland gothic.

Deutschland Block.

Der Fuhrer gothic.

Germania gothic.

Germania block.

Here is a hard one to get. SS Pioneersturmbann.

SS Schule Tolz.

So, What do you guys think? I would like to hear your comments on the comparison of the rune tabs. Does anyone know of any company or individuals out there that are making high quality fakes of these types of tabs? I viewed some the better known reproduction web sites and their insignias doesn't even come close.

Hi Grant,Thanks for posting those cufftitles.Would it be possible for you to post the backs of the Der Fuhrer,SS-Pionersturmbann and SS Schule Tolz?I like the tabs you posted and do not see anyhting that would indicate a reproduction myself.The repro SS-VT/TV collar tabs that you find on the web that are currently on the market are not that good.I have a couple sets and they are not even close.I do not know anything about repro tabs made in Europe though.

Grant I think they are real.

That said if you ever got a chance to visit North Palm Springs California and were invited to enter the back room you would be able to study the best fakes ever available.The problem there is you find one you cant tell the difference on and ask if its fake you will be told its not.There are some very very good fakes. Much of the very common items edelweiss patches,heer breast eagles,specialty patches etc. are sold in large volume to collectors and dealers who turn around and sell them as real either on auction sites or at shows.An easy way to make money without selling off your collection.I have alot of doubts towards much of the SS cloth surfacing today unless it is vet purchased.For obvious reasons.These repros arent made in Europe they are done in the Phillipines and Pakistan with precision copying techniques.
Many of the big expert names will tell you they can tell the difference,thats not true but of co**** thats what they have to say to maintain the status they carry and earned to some degree from experience.But thats also another problem we all have except among friends we dont like to admit we can be duped.I watched people compare a fake eagle and say some detail was different so it had to be bad, then I find an original from old collection with the same flaw they pointed out as being a tell tale sign.

Very intersting John, I would be realy interested how the tabs and cufftitle look from the back room in North Palm Springs California.
But I would buy all insignias from Grant right away doesn�t metter from a vet or a collecor or a dealer when I could afford the payment.

Grant,
I was not not trying to be particularly contentious but it struck me that the embroidery on a couple of the tabs looked rather like some recent copies. You ask if high quality reproductions are available. Here is one from a European source. In my opinion it is an excellent copy, disturbingly so.
Derek

Hi Grant, I comment you for having the balls to post your tabs and put them up for scrutiny. Sonny

Hi derek, Is the maker in Europe or just the seller. These are very similar to what I am talking about.What I have been learning over the past couple years is how few even experienced collectors are aware of what is out there.

Hi Derek.Do you have an image of the reverse of the collar tab you posted.If so could you post it please?

Derek,John, etc.., Thanks for all of the info. I am very interested in hearing more about the outfit in North Palm Springs,Ca. You can email me privately at ( [email protected] ) if you don't want to expose who they are on the forum, but IMO I believe that we (collectors) need to educate everyone (advanced or novice) from being stuck with pieces such as the one Derek pictured. Thanks again. Grant

Grant I have no problem saying its Traders of the lost Surplus.When people hear that they say "oh ive seen his website nothing even resembles originals" if youve seen the website youve not even scratched the surface.Thats the obvious its whats in the back door that is scary.
Do you remember the 80s when that cache of "found in the east" officer collar tabs with two rather than three twist cord piping was making the rounds at shows. He had a full set from oberfuhrer down, Runic and Skull both.I would stand at his booth at the Great Western as dealers there would come buy something then put it on thier table as real!!!I saw this with my own eyes and know it still happens today.He always asked me not to say too much and in order to keep my priviledge of seeing the newest in the back room I bit my tongue..they were nice to me.It was suggested that to pay for the things I like to buy I could invest in some items and make alot of money. I saw Janke tunics made in the 60s and new made ones as well. Visor caps Skull and Eagle sets Cyphers boxed Honor rings. The last I was there in 2000 it was a Knights cross Zimmerman marked and well aged,couldnt fool an experienced person but a novice would be swallowed alive.There is a reason this tunic was made up to say "the joke is on the collector" like myself who is so easily duped even after putting so much time into it.Offensive and tasteless but its what some in the shadows think of serious collectors.

Very intersting repro VT Pioneer collar tab that you have posted Derek.
How can we spot it out, just about the tiny tiny quality difference or from the revers too?

detail from one "DF" Mannschaft/Uffz. cufftitle

This is a fake that has fooled some experienced people.

Curt, Your right, that tab would fool a lot of collectors. I do however see the faults. If you scroll up and compare to mine you will see some differences.

trying to save this thread
blkbear

This Thread / Display Thread of Runes, Rautes (Diamonds), and Cuff Titles - just can't missed for those who appreciate SS Cloth. Txs, Dave ...dblmed