UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS officer at yardsale!!!

I'm not really a ss fan. So I couldn't tell if it is a genuine ss sword or not. But for $100 at a yard sale I couldent resist it.The guy had a small lot of military stuff, no german stuff. So I asked him if he didn't have something german, after a little chat he went in to his house and came out with this ss officers sword. Hope some of you guys can give me your oppinions on it.

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Looks Great - you did well, very well - Congrat's

Looks legit from what I can see. Is there a makers mark on it? You also need to see if the number is in the key.
Jim

jal,
You got the steal of the year for this one. One of my collector buddies once got a RZM SS Dagger from a Vets widow for $100. Up to now he had the biggest steal that I knew of.

Looks good from pictures! Wow that is a low number, hope it is in the Key but it seems alot of these really low numbers are not for some reason.

Looks like a 1938 non-Dachau model made of plated steel components. It is undoubtedly original.

OMG !!
A 5-6K sword for $100 ,well done
Looks okay from those pics,lets see some more !

I'll see if I can take some new pics tomorrow. Any specific part of the sword you would like to see?
"British Free Corp Mann" 5-6K are they really that expensive??? I'v been scouting the web for them, but couldn't find any. Found some nco and candidates version but no officers.

The reason you can't find any is they are a pretty hot item at this time so there's not many for sale. Again, take a pic. of the makers logo if there is one. Oh and congradulations!
Jim

I would have offered him only $85 unless it came with a decent portepee.

JAL, check Brian Maederer's site. He has a least three for sale. www.militarycollectiblesinc.com

Sweet dreams are made of these! Congratulations! Did not see 1122 on the 35 list.

If the number is 1122,it's not listed in "The Key".

Since the sword is a 1938 or later make it would seem logical that the person was an NCO in 1935 or earlier and made officer later on.

Yeah man! Congrats!That`s why I still stop at garage sales,you never know....

May be, perhaps i am wrong , but the upper scabbard fitting and the SS-button looks not good .

I'm with Tommy on the same. I also have some questions regarding the upper scabbard fitting,and the runes button. Every SS Officers Degen that I have ever inspected or owned with the exception of the Dachau types,have had the burnishing or at least the evidence of the burnishing in the upper scabbard fittings. Dachau type degens never did.

I can't remember a runes button in a non-Dachau SS Officers Degen, that the runes button didn't start precisely under the 5th grip segment and extended to just into the 9th segment. Here is the best that I could do with JAL's photo.

I may be wrong on this as well, but here are a few examples of the runes on 3 different degens.

G2

G3

One added point of interest is, the number "1121" is not on a single DL list of any that were printed.

The grip insignia placement on the two SS Honor degens in my collection is consistent with those pictured above. As an additional check I measured the overall grip length fron the top of the first ring to the last turn in the grip wire and it's a consistent 70MM + or - 1MM. It may be the camera angle but this one looks to be a trifle high.
What is the overall length of the grip on this new find since this could affect insignia placement?
While I still think the sword is alright it's because for one thing we have to look at intent. You could go broke trying to con people into buying $100 SS swords!!
Jim

Jim, Are you saying that these grips varied in length ?

I'm saying quite the opposite JR based upon the two SS Degens I have plus another half dozen SS/Police examples I just measured. They are all a consistent 70MM when measured as I indicated above.
Jim

When I first looked at the degen in question I thought something was wrong with the runes button. Maybe to thin? Then the more I looked the more I liked it. Now comparing photos I see the unusual placement and don't know what to think.

The 1938 and later SS swords had the runes medallion placed a tad higher than the earlier ones. Here is a pic of a 1938 or later non-Dachau model.

Here is the early grip for comparison.

You will also note that the bottom decorative nickel wire (the one closest to the ferrel) varies in placement from sword to sword, both SS officer and Police officer models. Some are wraped slightly below the tips of the ferrel, and others are quite high above the ferrel. It all depends on where the groves are cut into the wood grip.

I'm not "dissing" JAL's sword, but the grip appears to be "fatter" than most, which are pretty much "straight-lined" on their edges. It may be the button is smaller than most. The upper scabbard fitting screw has a large, flat, thick head, as seen on "Alcoso" fittings. This screw is rarely, if ever, seen on SS officer swords. The sword does appear to be a "police type" in that it appears to have plated fittings, or at least, some appear to be plated. The sword may still be 100% legit and is a bargain in any case. I have a theory, and that's all it is, that some police degens were converted to SS degens by their owners during the period by merely changing the grip. I am fully aware SS degens were awards and could not be purchased by just any SS officer. However, I think it possible, and perhaps likely, some awarded the "honor degen" carefully preserved their presentation pieces by using converted degens for everyday use. The same seems to be true in many cases for "Himmler" daggers. Few of those seem to have "everyday wear" when compared to so many "non-Himmler" pieces. Most found are in very decent condition. Most SS degens are in the same condition. You just don't see may "dog" "Himmler" daggers or SS degens, unless they have been abused or neglected since the war. If an officer was the recipient of a degen, he could provide proof of the award and a degen or grip maker could provide him with an SS grip. The grips may have been obtainable without such proof, if such a practice existed. I know if I received either recognition, I would have not have worn either, if at all possible, in order to preserve them. Then, too, there could have been "police type" degens awarded as well. I believe, though, if such was the case, it was a short-lived practice, since Muller was beginning to turn out degens from Dachau during the late 1930's. His forge was an SS business enterprise (as in making money) and I suspect exclusive use of his swords for presentation quickly became the norm.

Hi!
The SS button looks a little odd to me, actually it looks like the ones that Johnson sells. They are slightly smaller than should be and are not silver. Can you try to scratch the runic button in an inconspicuous spot and tell me what color shows where the scratch is? What is the material in the background of the runic button? Also, take a look at the bottom of the grip. It appears as if the rest of the grip may have been repainted or refinished, is that true? The reason they would do that is to cover up the gaps around the ill-fitting runic button. There was most likely a police eagle there at one time.
I look forward to your responses.
Good Luck!
Bob

the upper scabbard fitting appears rather crude in its execution. rough edges, no evidence of any background darkening. it reminds me of a type sold by johnson in the late 80s early 90s. they came with ss proofmarks as does this one. ive also seen that number or one very close to it somewhere before. could it be some accountability number from an ss nco blade, you know the ones that were signed out to be used by ncos at parades etc? just my thoughts, anyone else have anything to add? regards,,mike leone dds max life member

Well I guess people will go to any means to make a $100!
The scabbard on one of my SS degens is about 1 inch longer than the blade. Did it come this way from the manufacturer when someone put it together? Did the officer who received it decide he wanted a slightly longer scabbard? Did the scabbard that came with the sword become damaged and was it replaced by this one?
This sword was purchased from a vets family so I think post war replacement is unlikely.
Furthermore; I've obtained a lot of strange combinations in this manner. Recently I purchased an Army saber with a shooting lanyard attached to the scabbard ring. The owner,who was related to the vet that brought it back, told me he thought it was the swords hanger!
Jim

In my opinion, every proper assembled 3rd Reich sword will be within a 1/2 inch or less from the tip of the scabbard. That is unless the blade has been blunted, retipped, or the scabbard was switched for one that has nicer paint, somewhere along the line.

But back to the sword that was initially posted, can we get some better shots of the hilt, grip and runes ?

My expert assessment here is that the blade should always be a bit shorter than the scabbard. If it is longer it wont fit, cause it dont go in all the way. So in that event a hole will have to be drilled or cut open so the blade wont bottom out at the tip. Now, in order to prevent insuries the pertruding blade tip will have to be wrapped in duck tape. This arrangement comes in handy at times cause the owner can go spear fishin' (or horse apple pickin') without removing the scabbard. Yessir.

I agree Manfred, the blade does need to be shorter than the scabbard, but a good test that the blade and scabbard are matched is to lay the sword on top of the scabbard, hilt to bottom of the "D" guard. Most proper ones will be aproximately 1/2 inch or less. Those showing an inch or more are cause for a suspected switch-a-roo.

if you want to see pics in high resolution go to:

http://photos.yahoo.com/trustno1_jal

I have seen a few Dachau types with the blade tip sticking out of the scabbard. I believe this came about from GI's putting them together.

Dale: Gee, I sure like to find one like that. Thems are the ones I always wanted.

In the final analysis I would say that for a 100 bucks at a yardsale one can be mightly tolerant about minor discrepancies that ultimately can be fixed.

Jim.M- the length of the handel is 70mm if i've measured it right

could anyone tell me what the diameter of the runebutton should be. mine is 21-22mm.

the sword is all magnetic except for the runebutton that is non-magnetic

http://www.milprom.com/German/daggers/ss-sword.htm

The rune buttons on my two are 21MM. Magnetic fittings are the norm for late SS degens in my expeience and I believe that Manfred verified this in another thread based upon the many he has handled over the years.
JAL I stand by my original post. I think you have a legit SS degen and the pictures posted of another example with the rune button mounted high clinched it for me. The one thing I really don't like about the sword is the new appearing look of the upper scabbard fitting. Did you clean it or does it appear to have been cleaned recently?
BTW: THe above link is to a site that sells $400 repos that aren't even close to an original.
Jim

i purchased the exact type of upper scabbard finnting in the early 1990s from tom johnson, look in the old sales lists and you will see them there. they came with ss proofs but had that odd hue we see in the pic from jal. they didnt have the holes tapped for the screws as well. but, as someone said in a previous post, for $100.00 bucks, you cant go wrong. ive only owned 3 ss officer swords, all being the early non take apart type. one out of the woodwork, gailen david remembers that one! and one from tom w. and one from chip gambino. all with knots two of which had the little rzm tag sewn inside the strap. michael leone dds max life member

Aside from the discussion of the sword’s components the number on the blade may or may not be period. Similar numbers are are seen on some movie studio prop house swords being inventory control numbers. Not commonly seen now some as most of the assets from studios and suppliers to studios have long since been sold off. While most of the swords were nothing to write home about, and many had been fooled around with, there were some very nice swords in their collections. And not all of the markings were so deep or obvious although that tended to be the rule with the lightly or more discretely done examples being the exceptions still having one example of same. FP

JAL:
If you would like to recover the cost of this sword because of the questions raised send it to me. I'll pay you $100 plus shipping for it!
Jim

I'll double that offer!!

Geez, 56 posts and still going......