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#53808 01/11/2006 03:10 PM
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Any thoughts on these collar tabs?

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Tabs
#53809 01/11/2006 03:11 PM
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and the back....

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Tabs Reverse
#53810 01/11/2006 05:23 PM
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In my opinion look the tab good. Smile Regards, Guido

#53811 01/11/2006 06:21 PM
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I surely love to see them, real or not. They are magnificent in design. I wish I had some. Maybe at the SOS?

Mark Wink

#53812 01/11/2006 07:07 PM
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Hello Shinerb,
I would love a "hands on" to this uniform, but for sure I do not like what I see. Take a good look.
Regards,
Aylson Doyle

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GEN-01
#53813 01/11/2006 09:29 PM
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Here is the front

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Front
#53814 01/11/2006 09:31 PM
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...and the eagle. Is the collar simply an earlier more pointed version? Odd how it sits partially across the breast eagle.

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Eagle
#53815 01/11/2006 10:01 PM
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Its probably a tailormade piece.
Its a really beautiful generals eagle which goes nicely with, in my opinion, early original collar tabs. The eagle also seems to be neatly hand sewn on. A good sign! Still it needs a hands on ofcourse.

I like what I see so far!
/Felix

#53816 01/11/2006 11:57 PM
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Hello again Shinerb,
I have reasons to believe that the insignias are may be real but NOT original to the tunic, the position of the right side collar tab is not the same to the left side. On a special made tailored tunic for a General this cannot happen, they have to be symmetrical. Part of the insignia on the right side are out of the collar, this is not good.
BOTH ribbon bars are wrong and could not be worn together this way, no doubt it is not original to the tunic.
The eagle, by this picture, is placed a little far right from where it should be.
The tunic seems to be in mint condition, and in most cases there�s something wrong. Did you try a black light inspection?
Regards,
Aylson Doyle

#53817 01/12/2006 03:32 AM
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Alyson,

Thanks for the reply and insight. This is definately while I wanted peoples thoughts. The sewing isn't square to me on the backside of the boards where they are attached to the collar. I'm not sure if this is seen much or not.

Also, the tunic is dated 1944 which might reflect it's "new-looking" condition.

I'm not concerned with the ribbon bars. They are definately not original to the tunic but on there haphazardly just because the owner doesn't have a long one.

#53818 01/12/2006 12:01 PM
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Not all collar tabs were placed perfectly as can be seen is this RK photo of General Dietl. Also note the placing of the breast eagle.

Just to give some ideas.

Cheers,
Felix

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#53819 01/12/2006 05:13 PM
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Hello Felix,
I don�t know what do you mean. This beautiful and very rare model 1937(order dated 12 July 1937, HV 37, No.926) ornamented field blouse belonging to WH-GENERALOBERST EDUARD DIETL is perfectly symmetrical, looks a little odd because the angle that this picture was taken.
And both collar tabs are not placed outside collar.
Regards,
Aylson Doyle

#53820 01/12/2006 05:42 PM
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Gerard has one on his site currently with the collar boards that seem large and appear above the edge of the collar.

General's Tunic

#53821 01/12/2006 07:43 PM
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AD; I mean that on the tunic Dietl is wearing the collar tabs is placed almost outside of the collar as well. Im sure minor variants did exist. I think the angle in top photos of this thread is somewhat incorrect. I mean like visually from the image.

Cheers,
Felix

#53822 01/13/2006 05:56 AM
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Aahh, regarding that Army General's tunic refered to on Stezelberger's Site, somebody should tell Stezelberger that, on the maker's label, June is spelled "Juni" in German, not "Juno".

#53823 01/14/2006 03:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Schloss 1:
Aahh, regarding that Army General's tunic refered to on Stezelberger's Site, somebody should tell Stezelberger that, on the maker's label, June is spelled "Juni" in German, not "Juno".


Hello Schloss,
I fully agree with you. It looks like that this tunic is a "put together" one. I like nothing on this tunic.
Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle

#53824 01/14/2006 05:43 AM
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I in turn agree that this General's tunic is a 'put-together'. Aylson, I do have to admit I've seen something regards this tunic that I do like a lot,- (it's the belt & buckle!) And I'm willing to bet the same person who sew'd the 2 ribbons to the front (EK2/Russian Front) thru the buttonhole is the same person who put the 2 ribbons on his tunic #21. Take a look. I do love that label. "Juno" Beach was one of the landing sites of the Normandy Invasion, perhaps the tag serves to indicate that Gen. Beelitz served as defensive Kdr. of "Juno" beach??!! Seriously tho, G.S. advertises his Site on here, & with his proclamations of having impeccable expertiese, should have caught that miscarriage before buying it & offering it for sale.

#53825 01/25/2006 12:54 AM
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Shinerb sent me these photos for comment, blind. I hadn't read any of the comments above at the time, and I generally concur with Aylson. I do not like the positioning of the tabs at all.

One other issue that concerns me is the number of buttons. This is a five button tunic dated Mai 1944. The change to six buttons was dated 26 Mai 1941. Whilst some tailors did produce five button tunics after that date, three years is a long time.

We all know generals were allowed far more leeway in their dress than lower ranks, but why persist with five buttons?

Another issue of interest to me is the tailor. The tag indicates a Berlin maker, but the collar design and location of the breast pockets are far from standard. The collar dips very low, and the breast pockets usually commence below the second button, even on five pocket tunics. Such variation usually indicates a tailor from an occupied territory or small German town, not the hub of German military fashion.

What do you think?

David!

#53826 01/25/2006 03:21 PM
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I agree, the location of the pockets and tabs would worry me . Was this a Holters Tunic ? If so .. I have 3 named, Holters Tunics and Shinerb's does not match ..to start , look at the pockets and collar. The Tunic on the far right is dated Sept 1942 .

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#53827 01/25/2006 03:23 PM
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look at the position of the tabs & pockets, size of the collar

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#53828 01/25/2006 03:26 PM
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close up

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#53829 01/25/2006 03:27 PM
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#2

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#53830 01/26/2006 05:50 AM
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No, this was not a Holter's tunic but rather Averbeck & Brosxxxx, Berlin W.

I wonder if the high pockets have something to do with the point of the collar partially covering the breast eagle?

#53831 01/26/2006 06:20 AM
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Maybe the Tailors style or , it was designed this way ....for whatever reason. It sure does have the John Travolta look going for it though!
..One thing that really bothers me is the tabs,also they were not sewn on correctly and look out of place. I've never seen an original tunic where the tab overhangs the edge of the collar. This makes me wonder what else has been added to the tunic or if it was an early style reworked.

#53832 01/26/2006 09:09 AM
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Mike,

Can you send me an e-mail. I've got some pics of a general's tunic that I'd like to get your input on.

Thanks, [email protected]

#53833 01/27/2006 02:01 AM
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Threads like this amuse me. Tailors measured and 'tailored' tunics to their owners....not their insignia. If any of you have collected Generals insignia on even a casual basis you've surely noted the difference in sizes and manufacture of both tabs and boards. There was no 'one size fits all'. Regardless of the provenance of this piece, if you're basing opinions on whether the insignia fit a tailored tunic or not, you're all way off base. General's uniforms didn't come pre-made from some factory in a regimented fashion.

Originial insignia is original insignia. Tailored clothing is tailored clothing. Neither was designed to fit the other.

By the way, I recently re-tailored my business wardrobe (a downsize, fortunately) and asked for some radical changes that my tailor wasn't prepared to make, and advised against. Even then, my desire won out over the tailors advice (and the tailor didn't come out screaming, "you can't do that, that coat is from 1988, its not the style/regulation now"). Imagine back in the day when the only response back from the rather intimidated tailor would've been, 'Jawohl, Herr Generale!". Nuff said?

#53834 01/27/2006 02:14 AM
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By the way, nice tabs Wink

#53835 01/27/2006 02:16 AM
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Mike, I would like to send you an email.

[email protected]

#53836 01/27/2006 02:33 AM
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Robert....my email is listed...just sent you one.

#53837 01/27/2006 03:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Brigadefuhrer:
Threads like this amuse me. Tailors measured and 'tailored' tunics to their owners....not their insignia. If any of you have collected Generals insignia on even a casual basis you've surely noted the difference in sizes and manufacture of both tabs and boards. There was no 'one size fits all'. Regardless of the provenance of this piece, if you're basing opinions on whether the insignia fit a tailored tunic or not, you're all way off base. General's uniforms didn't come pre-made from some factory in a regimented fashion.

Originial insignia is original insignia. Tailored clothing is tailored clothing. Neither was designed to fit the other.

By the way, I recently re-tailored my business wardrobe (a downsize, fortunately) and asked for some radical changes that my tailor wasn't prepared to make, and advised against. Even then, my desire won out over the tailors advice (and the tailor didn't come out screaming, "you can't do that, that coat is from 1988, its not the style/regulation now"). Imagine back in the day when the only response back from the rather intimidated tailor would've been, 'Jawohl, Herr Generale!". Nuff said?

..by the way , you wouldn't happen to have a picture of GFM Rommel in his open collar Tunic ..you know , the one with the smaller red field on the collar tabs ..that the Tailor obviously cut down so that it fit the collar style ? Wink
There's no way that any Tailor would make a custom Tunic and then take stock insignia and just stick it on ...even if it didn't really fit. I don't know how many General Officers Tunics you've handled but , they really paid attention to symmetry and detail. A Generals Tunic where the collar hangs over and rubs against the breast Eagle ? (we're not talking about a Panzer Wrap style here where the overhang is intentional) And the Tabs are sewn on hanging over the edge of the Collar ?
If that's acceptable to you , you should contact the seller and buy it ...could be a good investment!

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#53838 01/27/2006 01:09 PM
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If you look in Brian Davis' book on Luftwaffe Uniforms and Insignia, Volume I, page 83 to be specific, you'll notice a nice photo of GFM Milch sitting at his desk in a beautifully tailored fliegerbluse.....in which the tailor put his shoulderboards on the wrong sides. Guess that tunics no good either.

#53839 01/27/2006 05:20 PM
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....That's actually GFM Sperrle on page 83 not GFM Milch.
You've been at this long enough ,so I know don't have to explain anything about shoulderboards to you. What I would to know though is what's going on with you ? Did I offend you in some way ? The sarcasm was not really needed.

#53840 01/27/2006 11:53 PM
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Sorry, Mike. I guess I detected sarcasm in your reply to my initial post and believing that this was your manner assumed you would have no problem with me using it back. Thats the problem with 'deciphering' keyboard dialogue. I'm sure with our common interest and passion in this hobby we'd probably enjoy each others company if we met face to face. My apologies, again.

And you're right, you don't have to explain anything about shoulderboards to me. Putting them on 'backwards' was a fairly common tailors mistake. Problem is, I've seen other threads where perfectly good Generals uniforms were trashed by people because the boards were on backwards. Had these 'experts' spent any time studying period photographs they'd realize this did happen. Thats my beef with the absolutism that is often spouted on these forums....another forum in particular has a big problem with this and perhaps I've just spent too much time reading threads at that place lately.

I do not profess to be an expert. I've collected since the late 60's, owned four Generals uniforms (two of which I still possess), seen and yes 'handled' a fair share too. However I find the most revealing information by looking at period photographs, not only in reference books but individual officers and em's photo albums. I am a passionate observationist and cull my own opinions and beliefs from these period photos and some basic logic. As you know, Mike, much of the stuff out there now has been messed with, so handling militaria these days isn't necessarily the be all and end all to determining what was and wasn't done.

If tailors were capable of putting shoulderboards on backwards on a regular enough basis that the photographic evidence is somewhat common, sloppy collar tab jobs are certainly possible as well. I've even seen a period photo of a breast eagle on the wrong breast.

It seems for every professed absolute, eventually a photo surfaces to dispel the practice. I've seen some goofy tailoring mistakes, including on officers tunics. You want a good laugh, look at Davis' Army book on page 36 at Generalmajor Kreipe, who is sporting Generalfeldmarschall collar tabs. Or how about page 170 where Generalmajor Ravenstein's photo shows that Rommel evidently didn't bother to share his tailor as Ravenstein's open collar tropical tunic has the tips of his collartabs riding over the top of the collar too.

My point is this; tailoring by its very nature is a personalized alteration of a garment. Generals in particular, as you well know, exercised a great deal of personal freedom in how their uniforms were tailored, often going beyond regulation. Those long, pointy collars were very popular (You ever see Demelhubers??? Those babies looked like if there ever was a big gust of wind he'd turn into the Flying Nun). Granted, those long collars on this particular uniform are butt ugly, but thats not to say that this guy didn't want them that way. This we will never know, unless a period photo of him in the tunic surfaces. And hey, if it is a put together, it sure ain't the first.

#53841 01/28/2006 12:41 AM
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No prob ..I read your post the wrong way too and my apologies as well .And I agree there are so many period made screw-ups out there that if it wasn't for the photos ..we'd doubt every variation we'd see. My TK Tunic came from the Vet with a Political Eagle on the Visor. But , that's how it was when (he admitted) he took it out of the guys closet in 45.
When it comes to General Officers however , I think there's less of the Tailor screw-ups because an Ego was involved (big Egos)...these guys wanted to look sharp and really tried to go by the book. Or (like Rommel) create a personalized look ..but still be above the criticism. I bet a room full of Generals would sound like old ladies ..."Did you see Hans's Tunic ? Vat da Hell is dat ?"
About 15 years ago I met a FJ Lt. that served with Skorzeny (he was in on the Musso deal) ..by accident. He ended up in Alaska after the War ...anyway , I asked him about Otto's Uniform. He said that it was standard practice for the higher ups (on front line duty) to take Enlisted Tunics and add the insignia themselves and beat the Hell out of them rather than wear an expensive Tailored Tunic and destroy it ...picture how many of those Tunics would be labeled Fake if they surfaced today !
Since many of us started collecting a long time ago (I got my first helmet when I was 8 ..41 years ago , ugh)I think we are really lucky because we still have items that came right from the Vets and have not been played with ..we can use these for ref examples. But with over 60+ years of items being played with,altered and outright fakes ...everyone is paranoid , and at today's prices ...I don't blame them.
Unfortunately the hobby has changed to more of an investment and we all want to know and be sure that the items we buy ..are the real deal.
It was so much easier back in 1970 when the Fake Medals had "GERMANY" in English and in bas-relief on the back ..remember those ? Big Grin
Anyway ..sorry again about the misunderstanding..
talk soon
--Mike

#53842 01/28/2006 01:27 AM
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Hey Mike, not to turn this into a Germanuniforms.com love fest, but sounds like we probably have quite a bit in common. I know our age is one of 'em as I turn 49 just before Hitler turns 117. We also share the same first name. Write me offline when you get a chance, we've probably got some good Generals knowledge we could swap.

By the way, great story you shared about the higher ranks giving their uni's the 'field' look. Its little nuggets of the past like this that the vets share that really open our eyes about how things things weren't all quite so textbook as we'd like them to be. Expensive lessons are learned in this hobby when we're not careful, but sometimes we all get too careful and too busy trying to find Waldo and forget the reality of how things sometimes actually were.

Good thread, everyone. At times I worry that this forum is in its dying throes, but every time I post (which is rare) good information is always shared and it starts to feel all over again just like it did a few years back.

#53843 01/28/2006 02:26 AM
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If I had a period photo of the General in question it would definately make a tough descision easy. Unfortunately, the only photo is him in an M36 officer's uniform.

#53844 01/28/2006 02:55 AM
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Shinerb what's the price on the tunic, if you don't mind me asking?

Oh, and another question. In the picture you do have of this guy, is he fat or barrel chested?

#53845 01/28/2006 05:40 AM
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U can drop me an E-mail and I'll go over the details with you. [email protected]

#53846 01/29/2006 03:26 PM
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I've got a couple of questions for all regarding General's tunics.

On page 134 of Brian Davis' book, it shows a photo of two Generals, one wearing a Reichsheer tunic (with the upward slanted slashed side pockets), and one showing what is referred to as the M36 tunic (with the box pleated pockets). It states that many Generals preferred to continue wearing the Reichsheer-style tunics throughout the war.

I'm wondering when exactly the so-called M36 tunic actually started to appear - was it really 1936, or did this style appear earlier than that? Does anyone think its possible for an M36 tunic to exist (with these types of pockets) with a tailor's label dated 1935?

And what would you think about a tunic with General's insignia that had a label in it that indicated that when the tunic was made, the wearer was a major? Do you think that it's conceivable that the owner would have continued wearing the same tunic through two promotions?

Thanks,
Clive

#53847 01/29/2006 04:06 PM
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It was very common for owners to keep on wearing tunics through promotions and this is not at all unusual to see. Simple logic comes into play here too; why go to the expense of buying a whole new tunic when you are just changing the rank?

Somewhere in one of my many books I read about one of the army field marshals who took it to quite the extreme and wore the exact same tunic, every day, to the point where it was not too pleaseant to be around him (I think he was not a regular bather either). Evidently it was pretty ratty and had been continually patched up and repaired over the years by his adjutant. He even wore this when called in to see Hitler, much again to the dismay of his adjutant. Don't remember which GFM it was, perhaps somebody else can contribute the name in the meantime.

#53848 01/29/2006 04:43 PM
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Thanks Brigadefuhrer; how do you feel about an M36 tunic with a tailor's label dated 1935?

#53849 01/30/2006 01:17 AM
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And getting back to the cute spelling of the month of June on the label, how does anyone feel about a label in your Nazi General's tunic with the month spelled "Juno"?? And by the way, June in Latin is not "Juno", it is "Junius". This Latin word for the month of June (Junius) was derived from the Roman Pantheon Goddess Juno; she was the goddess of marriage & guardian of women. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't want a Nazi tunic of any type with the name of a Roman Goddess inside on the label for the name of the month it was made.

#53850 01/30/2006 01:32 AM
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A wartime-used alternate word for Juni (June) would have been "Brachmond", the historic Teutonic word for "June", from the old Germanic calendar. I've had Nazi tinnies with the month of June as "Brachmond", it also appears on antique steins, & years back I had a H.Youth calendar with all the months shown with all the old Germanic names, instead of Januar, Februar, M�rz, etc.

#53851 01/30/2006 01:54 AM
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This question's probably better answered by the tunic specialists, but here's my take; M36 is a style and with a Generals (or officers, for that matter) uniform you're talking about a tailored garment, quite often rendered to the tastes of the owner.

If it was an issue blouse, that might be a problem. Without digging through books I can't give you a clearer answer. Perhaps someone else can.

And I agree, the spelling of Juno is out there!

#53852 03/02/2006 08:30 AM
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Hello

I�m from Germany, so maybe I can give you some insight on the difference between "juni" and "juno".
Schloss 1 is right with the reference to the roman goddess, but the term "juno" for "juni" is even today present in the German language. It is to my knowledge often used by people of the northern part of Germany (I�m from the south) and there mostly by "older" people.

Maybe "Juno" was/is not a common term in the German language, but it was definitely used.

#53853 03/03/2006 10:52 PM
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I guess I will weigh on this one, since I am the new owner of Gerard�s General�s tunic.

Schloss1:"Aahh, regarding that Army General's tunic refered to on Stezelberger's Site, somebody should tell Stezelberger that, on the maker's label, June is spelled "Juni" in German, not'Juno'."...Have you told Gerard yet? Personally, it was with a single query to a German friend from the north that I was able to learn that Juni/Juno are indeed used interchangeably.

Next, you claim that this tunic is a �put-together� and specifically, you point to the EKII/Ost ribbons. I find this a very strange statement to make, based on the photo�s that Gerard provided there is only a superficial view of these ribbons, with no reverse shot or photo of the attaching threads. I have attached small photo collage of three views of these ribbons from Gerard�s site so you can point out the specific areas that you have used to determine the tunic is �put-together.� So would you kindly demonstrate using these photo�s on what basis you have made your bold claim�Regards, John

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#53854 03/03/2006 11:47 PM
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Schloss 1,

learn the real german language then you would know Juno was and is still used in the german language very well.

#53855 03/04/2006 03:42 AM
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Hey Hassler,
if you know the German language so well, & I see that your nose has been stuck into this subject since your posting of 26.1.06 which means you've been following it, then why didn't you explain way back then about the difference between Juno & Juni, instead of us having to hear about it from gutemuh, we'd rather have heard from it from such a self-proclaimed SS hot-shot like you, I must so assume you simply didn't know the difference at all til told us by gutemuh, so don't run that sewer beneath your prissy nose at me as if you are someone to tell me to learn the German language "very well". I guess I am remiss to have not paid much attention to my grandparents speaking German when I was younger, & I'm the first to admit that only some of it has stuck. But with them being Bavarians & Silesians, I suppose they never heard of "Juno". And now Mr. Voice-of-Authority in your own mind, but in reality the Voice-of-Authority of the Beginners Peanut-Gallery, it is your turn to get advise on languages,- what YOU need to work on, is to quit using that really stupid put-on fake German accent you continue to use all the time, (hey look I'm a real German, see by my style of twisted English)- it is getting to be very boring, get rid of that phony mis-worded style of English,- why is it in person that you use superb English but when typing you fake it up??

#53856 03/04/2006 04:16 AM
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Having personally met Robert, and no offence to him but his english is not perfect in person just as it is not perfect on this forum. I think you need to chill out Schloss, you took something the wrong way. I hardly think he is faking that he is German. Roll Eyes

#53857 03/04/2006 04:20 AM
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I know he is German (German-American); I have met & talked with him so I know he is not faking that he is German.

#53858 03/04/2006 04:39 AM
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Schloss1 - With all due respect, I don't think the problem here lays with Robert. You were the one who started all this bit over the Juni/Juno issue, condemning the tunic and Gerard. As a non-native German speaker my first move was to consult a native speaker, before rushing to judgement. You were wrong, so let's just move on...

Again, I would kindly ask that you clarify your earlier comments regarding the EKII/Ost ribbons. Please show where, from the photo's that Gerard has provided, your evidence that the tunic is "put-together". Regards, John

b1.jpg (44.12 KB, 291 downloads)
#53859 03/04/2006 05:23 AM
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Well John M. Donovan, congratulations on your purchase of this beauty, it looks like you're sure happy with it, that's good to know, as you are the one who must be happy. I'm sure tho that there are plenty of Army Maj.Gen. tunics available out there in the Land of the Generals that are flawless as far as the application of insignia, so you jumped on this'n? Someday when/if you sell it, you are the one who'll have to explain any idiosyncrasies to the potential buyer. This is what I was speaking of when I said made-up. Not the whole thing, only the application of the collar tabs everybody had been discussing. My opinion is not changed, me personally, I wouldn't want it; I prefer uniforms with their effects to be copesetic & the collar tabs being congruent & equidistant all the way 'round as pertains to distances to the edges. From the pics, it looks (to me) like a goofy job of application; the one tab is up way to high on its backend,- it's up so high it'd rub the neck so why no wear there? Maybe the General wore it once, & then put it away in the closet at home where it hung til war's end, who knows? The other tab is way, way down too far on the lower right. Maybe it's just the pictures? Maybe if in-hand, I'd think differently. But if you are satisfied & on the bandwagon of glee with Gen. Beelzelbug's tunic, that's fine, good luck with it. On the ribbons, I was saying that the mint new-looking ribbons look like they were put on yesterday by Grandmother Schneidermeister; no wear anywhere. It looks like the same mint ribbon set-up on the nr.21 'Der Spiess' NCO tunic. In re-thinking my posting on the ribbons, I'll take that bold commentary back, (as actually, who really cares about $2.oo worth of ribbons.) But I still don't go for the way the tabs were applied. Maybe the guy working on them at the time was an ill-fed & tired slave laborer. Have fun, & "God Bless",

#53860 03/04/2006 07:26 AM
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Hi Schloss1 �

First, you claim that �� I'm willing to bet the same person who sew'd the 2 ribbons to the front (EK2/Russian Front) thru the buttonhole is the same person who put the 2 ribbons on his tunic #21.� This was your statement based on the very limited photo�s provided. Then I ask you to kindly show us on what you are basing this statement, you come up with ��I was saying that the mint new-looking ribbons look like they were put on yesterday by Grandmother Schneidermeister; no wear anywhere.� You are basing your statements on the condition of the ribbon alone? Not the method of attachment or the thread that is use? Then you say �In re-thinking my posting on the ribbons, I'll take that bold commentary back�.

So is this just your thing, to throw negative comments out there with absolutely no foundation? First you were wrong about the Juni/Juno on the tailor's label. Now when asked to back up claim on the ribbons, you've decided to take your comments back. This means nothing you have said thus far is correct.

You should have stopped there, but you didn't...Now you are telling us that your whole basis for claiming the Beelitz tunic was �made-up� is ��only the application of the collar tabs everybody had been discussing.� Really! Pardon me for asking this, but do you realize that this thread was about two different General's tunics?The questions surrounding the collar tab application were regarding the first tunic posted by ShinerB. Now, I think you should respectfully take this opportunity to admit you were wrong � Three Times � and bow out gracefully�Regards, John

#53861 03/08/2006 07:27 PM
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Aw, I get off here for a while & when I come back, I see that Mama Donovan has let her baby boy out of the Germanophile Playroom & let him sit in front of the keyboard. Now, Johnnie, you sit down, clear your head, lock your feet at a 45-degree angle, place your thumbs along the seams of your skirt, straighten the pleats on your skirt, shut up & LISTEN, you word-twisting, manipulative myopic twitter. What do you do to put brot on the table,- are you a flimsy lawyer who goes into the courtroom & twists the truth sideways, upside down, inside out &/or topsy-turvey? Or are you a speechwriter for US Presidents? Or do you write articles about the superiority/great quality of US automobiles? Have been reading some of your past postings, & have noticed some haughty, contentious demeanor, it's a wonder somebody hasn't requested to meet you at a show & grab you by your pigskin, & Drop Kick you outta the stadium. In answer to your inane question that if I realized the thread was about two different General's tunics, yes, I have from the start been aware,- even the nearest crosseyed moron could see that there are two rigs involved. When I mentioned the inconsistency of the sewing-on of the collar tabs, it was concerning the tunic on G.B.'s Site, NOT the tunic as was originally posted by shinerb. Re-read the entire thread, you dazzling incommode! It was shinerb's posting of 12.1.06 12:42 that brought up the subject of the 2d tunic on G.S.'s Site w/the collar tabs that appeared up & above the edge of the collar, etc.,etc. The tabs are on crooked (off-cant) on shinerb's tunic, & they are CROOKED & Off-CANT on your newly acquired tunic also! Really! In reply to another of your baiting questions, yes, yes, yes, again, that's exactly what I'm saying, I am telling you my whole basis for claiming your tunic being "made-up" is the wacky application of the collar tabs, because in my opinion, one goofy aspect ruins the whole thing; it's like buying a new car & one of the doors was put on crooked & doesn't fit properly & won't even open or close; if there's one thing wrong with it, what good is it? Owning your tunic is like sitting on a toilet seat that wiggles. Reviewing your past postings reveals that you try to promote yourself as a most fastidious collector, so why on this tunic did you dope off? I don't see you as fastidious, but I see you as fatuitous.
In answer to your other question, "yes", I was basing my opinion on the condition of the ribbon alone,- quit bringing it up over'n'over about the back of the $2.oo ribbons and/or their attaching threads or manner of attaching, I could give a rat's patutie if they are GLUED ON. My opinion was based on the frontal views on the G.B. Site as you very well know, what the ...., was I supposed to have a Registered New York Medium here with me to give me a psychic vision of the backsides? Really! My statement pointing to the brand-new looking ribbons was not strange at all, as based on the fotos that G.S. provided, they look way too mint & new, & so my opinion was reasonable.
I think you should respectfully take this opportunity to admit you are in remorse for buying this tunic with crooked off-cant collar tabs, you may do so & then bow out gracefully.
Don't take it so hard over this General Beelelbug tunic, John, bend over & take it soft once in a while.
Go now back to your Germanophile Playroom, & play dress-up German soldier in your new uniform.

#53862 03/08/2006 09:49 PM
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Hi Schloss1 �

Have you heard story of "The Boy who cried Juno too many times"? I understand you�re embarrassed at the numerous, public mistakes that you�ve made and you feel obligated to salvage what little dignity you have left, but I hardly think that insulting me and continuing down this line will demonstrate to anyone that you possess even more than a basic understanding of this field. However, I am more than happy to indulge you and I would like to point out, that I make it to most of the major shows if you ever wish to continue this discussion in person�I don't just write well.

Please explain to me how I have twisted anything when all I have done has quoted your own words. I�m no fancy speech-writer, just educated and able to read what you�ve already written. It�s heartening to see that you do realize this thread was about two different tunics, but nowhere in the previous posting did you or anyone point out that there was an issue with the application of the tabs on my tunic. The only �issues� regarding tab application were pointed out regarding the first tunic. So please, by all means show us where the tabs on my tunic were pointed out as incorrect. The only mention of these tabs came from ShinerB when he pointed out my tunic on Gerard�s site writing �with the collar boards that seem large and appear above the edge of the collar.� In this post, he was merely inquiring as to if this was OK, and was mentioned by Brigadefuehrer it is OK. These tunic were tailored around the individual and not the insignia. This fact is born out again and again through the study of period photo�s.

However, I�m glad that are willing to admit that your sole basis for condemning the EKII/Ost ribbons was the condition, because as you said the photo�s do not provide enough information to make a definitive judgement. Yet somehow, the limited photo�s didn�t stop you and you were able to pronounce to us how �� I'm willing to bet the same person who sew'd the 2 ribbons to the front (EK2/Russian Front) thru the buttonhole is the same person who put the 2 ribbons on his tunic #21.� And all this based on condition�Well, let me ask you this: given that the overall excellent condition of my tunic and that this is a General�s rank tunic, what condition would you expect to find the EKII/Ost ribbons? Now, taking into consideration the excellent condition of the tunic and the fact that this worn by a General and not a �field soldier�, wouldn't it be more wrong if the ribbons were not in excellent condition? Again, please elaborate for us some more on the condition of the ribbons...

So now it's not the tailor's label, it's not the ribbons, it's the tabs? OK, I would like to give you the opportunity of demonstrating to us your "knowledge" on the subject. Please, show us all this �wacky� application of the tabs�Your Friend, John

b.jpg (58.56 KB, 172 downloads)
#53863 03/08/2006 09:58 PM
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Hi Schloss, Please show where the tabs are "crooked and offcant". They look symmetrical to me and everyone that has handled the tunic...John

b.jpg (58.56 KB, 166 downloads)
#53864 03/08/2006 10:07 PM
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Here's a side shot of the tab. Please point out to us "wacky" application here. Given the larger size of the tab and smaller collar, it would appear to take a skilled hand to be able to apply the tab so perfectly along the edge of the collar...John

bb.jpg (70.14 KB, 164 downloads)
#53865 03/09/2006 12:18 AM
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Schloss1 - Why you haven't shared your name with us yet? You seem very comfortable making lofty pronouncements and insulting no less than three people(Gerard, Robert, and myself)from the comfort of anonymity. I know it's easier to cast stones from behind the wall, but this is not how a real man behaves. I know your are comfortable lending a name to what you have written, because all your comments have been right on point...John

#53866 03/09/2006 01:13 AM
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Gentlemen. Friendly discussion is a great way for everyone to learn, and that's why we're here. Personal attacks, insults, and name calling will definitely not be tolerated on this forum. If you have any questions, read the Code of Conduct or send me an email.

Vern


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#53867 03/09/2006 01:50 AM
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Here, here Vern...Here is a photo I had on file showing a near identical placement of a General's collar tab...John

H-RK-008.jpg (40.95 KB, 116 downloads)
#53868 03/09/2006 02:04 AM
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This thread makes me laugh.

Why is it that the collectors think all Germans were perfect in their work ?

Can anyone proove that his Lt didn't sew them on for him ?

What about his driver?

Heck anything is possible, since most Generals new spent any time kiss arse in Berlin.

You have to look at the whole tunic to gauge what has or might have been added.

In the past 2 years, I have had 30 generals come through me. I only kept eight.

kent Burg does know what he is talking about on these. I have had a bunch of conversations with him and other Generals collectors about these issues.

Don't buy the BS, take the complete tunic and then decide


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