#52162
08/11/2007 09:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
I recently had the chance to take apart and photograph a fake SS dagger. It is one the best I have ever seen in that ALL of the parts of the knife are fake with maybe the exception og the tang nut.
I've got over 30 pictures so hang on forthe full story.
At first glance it looks like a reasonably nice SS RZM dagger.
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#52163
08/11/2007 09:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
Even out of the scabbard, it still looks good, but the more experienced guys will start to smell a rat 
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#52164
08/11/2007 09:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
Here are the faults. Start keeping a list
- The blade motto is too far down the blade
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#52165
08/11/2007 09:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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OP
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Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
The distance is way over the nominal 25mm you should expect to find.
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#52166
08/11/2007 09:18 PM
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OP
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The same thing is true of the trademark on the back
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#52167
08/11/2007 09:19 PM
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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Here is a real blade. Note the position. Also note that the fake one has got the trademark correct, but too low.
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#52168
08/11/2007 09:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
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The only other time I have seen this excat fake blade was the the one sent to me by 3 Finger Louie (Louis Wayne Blackburn) for examination. It was the one with the Eickhorn silverware trademark added.
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#52169
08/11/2007 09:23 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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OP
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The blade is also noticeably too narrow if compared with a real one. 32mm vs what is normally 34mm
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#52170
08/11/2007 09:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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OP
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The tip is ground slightly off-center. By itself this would not be a red flag as I have seen it on real blades. On this one it is another nail in the coffin
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#52171
08/11/2007 09:25 PM
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Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
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The tang is slighly fatter than you expect to see
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#52172
08/11/2007 09:26 PM
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OP
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Now that you have seen the blade, check out the hilt
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#52173
08/11/2007 09:29 PM
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OP
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The lower fit is not that good, but some real RZM daggers are that way. Once apart, I am convince the entire grip is a fake.
Here is the botton. That is not a wallowed out hole, but a faker's attempt to duplicate that hole in the real ones made by a mortising (sp?)chisel. It is two holes drilled on the side of the first hole.
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#52174
08/11/2007 09:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
The top of the grip shows that the guy drilling the holes was not quite accurate. That little blob you see inside is epoxy resin holding in the rune button
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#52175
08/11/2007 09:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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The rune button is too bright and looks like one of those fake stickpins.
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#52176
08/11/2007 09:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
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#52177
08/11/2007 09:35 PM
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Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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I think that the eagle is probably a real late model zinc eagle ...maybe.
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#52178
08/11/2007 09:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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The problem is that recess forthe eagle was too small and the eagle-mounter fellow tried to jam it in there, And bent it
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#52179
08/11/2007 09:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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#52180
08/11/2007 09:39 PM
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Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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#52181
08/11/2007 09:41 PM
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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Now if look really close, you can spot epoxy in the eagle's "armpit"
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#52182
08/11/2007 09:42 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
Also at the end of the wing. The faker tried to paint over it.
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#52183
08/11/2007 09:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
Moving on to the scabbard, I think that the scabbard might be real. It has a few quirks, but I cannot make up my mind. It had been repainted
Whatever it is, it is probably not an Eickhorn scabbard.
It (the one from the fake dagger)is on the left and an Eickhorn RZM scabbard is on the right. Note the fat throatpiece that is characteristic of the Eicks on the right.
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#52184
08/11/2007 09:50 PM
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Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
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The one that came with the fake is slightly longer and has a different shape to the lower fitting.
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#52185
08/11/2007 09:51 PM
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OP
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The fit of the throatpiece is a little off
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#52186
08/11/2007 09:52 PM
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OP
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It looks as if there are traces that it was pried out (??)
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#52187
08/11/2007 09:56 PM
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OP
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OOOPPS - Forgot to show you the crossguards. Made with a home casting set Note: - Imcomplete grooves that the faker did not bother to clean up with a file - Lower hole a little too rounded and upper hole a little too large (?) They are also about 15% heavier than normal guards.
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#52188
08/11/2007 09:57 PM
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OP
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One to the vertical hanger. Fake too
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#52189
08/11/2007 09:59 PM
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Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
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Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
The whole thing looks new. Too shiney. No paint loss to the rivets. But the clip is the obvious give-away. Cast from grey metal.
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#52190
08/11/2007 09:59 PM
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Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
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The other side of the clip confirms it
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#52191
08/11/2007 10:00 PM
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OP
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#52192
08/11/2007 10:02 PM
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OP
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#52193
08/11/2007 10:05 PM
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OP
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Well, that's it.
It is one of those things that you could pick up, look at quickly and buy without knowing. Or get it off the internet.
As I said, it is the best more or less complete fake (not just a phoney blade) I have seen so far. Hope it helps.
I still have it, so I can take more pics.
Dave
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#52194
08/11/2007 10:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 831
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 831 |
Dave, thanks for posting this thread. Could you post some better pics of the motto? I seem to see that the dots over the "i"'s are more triangular than on original mottos? Or is it just my tired eyes?? Cheers,
Tor-Helge
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#52195
08/11/2007 10:16 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 512
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 512 |
An education in what to look for Dave,thanks for posting such an informative thread,where are these being made,any ideas.
Ivan.
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#52196
08/11/2007 10:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 142
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 142 |
Thank you Dave
very valuable informations to provide loosing money
Ralf
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#52197
08/11/2007 10:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 199
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 199 |
hi dave thx for this kind of info. its what newbies like me like to see...... also the cross in the Z in the makersmark is different it is flat on the ends of the fake where the original the right end is slanted... anybody elsee see this?
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#52198
08/12/2007 12:14 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66 |
Thanks Dave! Excellent educational piece! A real keeper in my info file.
React, Adapt and Persevere!
Adventure Expedition Specialist
X11.com
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#52199
08/12/2007 12:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
That's a classic Atwood piece right down to the fake vertical. If you train your eye you can spot those narrow blades right away. The fake SA's & NSKK's had this fault too.Also--I can't recall seeing any real SS daggers that have the late pot metal grip eagle-VERY few at best. SA's will sometimes have it. This dagger and hanger is approx 45 years old. As Dave says -there may be a few real parts on it. That new leather smell lasts quite a long time.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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1 member likes this:
kingtiger |
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#52200
08/12/2007 04:35 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,306
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,306 |
I agree whole-heartily . . . thanks Dave, an exceptionally informative thread! Are there variations in the measurements for other SS daggers, by other makers both RZM and early maker marked?  ~ Ian
GDC Gold Badge #0204
"Even if such objects cannot change the soul of man, at least they give him an identity." - Heinrich Himmler
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#52201
08/12/2007 08:09 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915 |
Dave, an excellent and detailed study, thanks!!! Do you have a straight shot of the motto, it appears to have the "funnel M"?
Red
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#52202
08/12/2007 12:19 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
Thanks. I'll do some good motto pics later today.
Dave
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#52203
08/12/2007 12:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,182 |
Dave,
Very interesting...Thanks....
Lou Bell
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#52204
08/12/2007 02:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,621
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,621 |
Great job,Dave.Is there crossgraining on the blade ?
Thanks.
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#52205
08/12/2007 07:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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There is crossgraining on the blade but it is faint and I cannot get a good photo. Here is the motto:
36.JPG (13.27 KB, 1419 downloads)
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#52206
08/12/2007 07:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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Closer left
37.JPG (16.11 KB, 1398 downloads)
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#52207
08/12/2007 07:22 PM
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OP
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Closer right
38.jpg (12.14 KB, 1385 downloads)
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#52208
08/12/2007 07:24 PM
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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Back to the scabbard. Looking at it more, I think it is 100% fake. Here is a shot of the top. The fake is on the left and a real Eickhorn is on the right.
32.JPG (81.51 KB, 1377 downloads)
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#52209
08/12/2007 07:25 PM
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OP
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It is visibly narrower. Here it is on the left with a Gembruch scabbard on the right.
33.JPG (52.23 KB, 1382 downloads)
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#52210
08/12/2007 07:26 PM
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OP
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Here is the width of the fake.
35.JPG (32.05 KB, 1356 downloads)
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#52211
08/12/2007 07:27 PM
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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And now the Eickhorn
34.jpg (31.42 KB, 1360 downloads)
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#52212
08/12/2007 09:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 142
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 142 |
What is size of the Gembruch, please?
Ralf
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#52213
08/12/2007 09:27 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Great stuff, Dave! If there is a sequel to the "SS" book, a chapter on fakes, including this information, would be very appropriate.
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#52214
08/12/2007 10:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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Grump, Trying to find fake SS daggers, unless it is those terrible $20 chained jobs, is very hard. Unfortunately, people who own the halfway convincing ones are trying to sell them as real  I was lucky to borrow this one. I will probably buy it to make sure it does not go anywhere. Also, apologies for one of my pictures of a real blade above. I posted a blade from 1939 when the fake is 1937. Here are two REAL 1937 Eicks:
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#52215
08/12/2007 10:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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OP
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#52216
08/12/2007 10:42 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,244 Likes: 1
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,244 Likes: 1 |
Thanks Dave
That was absolutely THE best presentation of how to tell fake daggers. Most of the guys just say its fake and they dont like it with going into the detail like you did. My hats off to you!
Bob
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1 member likes this:
kingtiger |
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#52217
08/12/2007 10:43 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 512
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 512 |
Dave,
Just a line on the smell of leather...It smells of leather for about 15 years or so.
Ivan.
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#52218
08/13/2007 09:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 86
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 86 |
Hi Dave, Great job, you put allot of work into that and it shows. Thanks for sharing and your time. 
Matt
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#52219
08/13/2007 10:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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OP
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Thanks. I hope other who can access a reasonable fake will do similar presentations. To answer questions: The Gembruch scabbard measured 16.04mm wide compared to the 16.02 mm width for the REAL Eick. I have been measuring and weighing SS dagger components for a while, but never looked at the width of the throatpiece until now. I need to dig out the original specs The leather not only smelled of leather but looked new as well. Dave
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#52220
08/13/2007 11:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,654 |
Dave, Nice info, and well presented. Sooooooo moral of the story, handle the "real" daggers, ask the SR collectos lots of questions, read the textbooks you will avoid getting ripped off! Sounds like a Clark Howard statement!
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#52221
08/14/2007 12:06 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66 |
quote: Originally posted by Dave Hohaus:
Thanks. I hope other who can access a reasonable fake will do similar presentations.
Dave
I hope so as well. Thanks for taking the point and leading the way. Before someone comments, I know books exist and I am reading them as fast as possible, however, there is nothing else like the internet. It can be the greatest educational tool of mankind if used correctly.
React, Adapt and Persevere!
Adventure Expedition Specialist
X11.com
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#52222
08/14/2007 12:25 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
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Skip,
Apart from Fred Stephens magnficent opus called "Reproduct ? Recognition?" there are few references.
Dave
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#52223
08/14/2007 01:57 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66 |
A whole new era starting right here! To be able to interact with the author is so much more educational and truly reinforces the learning experience.
React, Adapt and Persevere!
Adventure Expedition Specialist
X11.com
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#52224
08/19/2007 09:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
The biggest RED FLAG every kid can see is the motto. It's not only different from Eickhorn motto, it has this well known for years, weird "M" in "Meine".
Primitive fake.
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#52225
08/20/2007 01:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,037 Likes: 4
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,037 Likes: 4 |
Not all mottos with this style M are fake. I have an authentic one. There were different variations of Fraktur used during the Third Reich. Look at the N in the word Nimmer ("never" in English) in this poster from the March 1933 Reichstag election. Same fluted style. Looks like the big H himself approved of this. 
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#52226
08/20/2007 05:12 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 974 |
The problem is Eickhorn never used it Besides, we've been always told that "M" like that was associated more with Spain than Germany. What's the maker of your blade, Skyline?
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#52227
08/20/2007 12:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,037 Likes: 4
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,037 Likes: 4 |
I agree about the marked Eickhorn. Mine is an unmarked M36. The motto has several differences from the one shown by Dave. The tang is forged with the seven circle mark.
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#52228
10/18/2007 12:11 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 27
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 27 |
(Reg. the fake dagger on page 2.) Bloody Hell. And I was scared collecting Japanese Swords. What a mine field (ex. the pun). This one aside, have there been cases where dealers have been duped and onsold a piece unwittingly?
___________
R.R.
tread lightly
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#52229
10/25/2007 08:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2 |
Dave,
We broached this subject at the MAX, but I would like to see it applied to the dagger in your possession. What is the distance from the forte of the blade, the the last letter "e" in "Treue"?
FJS
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#52230
10/25/2007 09:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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I need to find it and measure it.
Dave
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#52231
10/27/2007 08:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2 |
Dave, I know that you are a busy fellow - but I would be pleased to see that information when you can get around to. Thanks
FJS
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#52232
10/27/2007 08:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
Dave:
In reviewing this thread I noticed one other feature to the scabbard that appears wrong. I think if you measure the width of the lower scabbard fitting on the fake you may find it's narrower than a real one.
Jim
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#52233
10/27/2007 09:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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Now i've two things to measure.
Dave
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#52234
11/01/2007 01:01 PM
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
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Jim,
The lower scabbard fitting measures out the same as real ones in depth, width, and height.
Fred,
Look and the fourth picture at the start of the thread.
Dave
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#52235
11/01/2007 05:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
Dave:
Here's the reason I asked you to measure the lower scabbard fitting: Repro on the left. Original on the right. The repro is much narrower than an original. Also note the size of the screw heads.
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#52236
11/01/2007 05:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 345 Likes: 2
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Joined: Sep 2003
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Of course, Dave, you are correct. I should have gone back over the photos to see the information. Interesting issue about the position of the motto.
Jim M is right about some of the proportions, even so someone has gone to a lot of trouble to create an item from start to finish - it is a very appealing copy.
Although the item has differences to the pre-war originals, and post war parts Eickhorn pieces, I would not be surprised if this had been created by, or via, Eickhorn. The volume of order that Atwood would have been able to place a "cooperative company", might have been sufficient to justify a small production run.
FJS
PS, I haven't forgotten about the original etching sheet for the trademark that I told you about - I just haven't been able to find it. Will let you see it as soon as I unearth it.
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#52237
11/04/2007 11:46 PM
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Posts: 15,094 Likes: 99 |
Fred,
Tell us more about post-war Eickhorn parts. That is a new one to me.
Jim,
Screws appear the same. As for the ball, I'd have to do more checking. My memory says that there are subtle differences in shape, even in early daggers, but I could be wrong.
Also, I think that the scabbard fittings were supplier items for all makers and not in-house pieces.
Dave
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#52238
11/05/2007 12:35 PM
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Good work Dave very interesting!
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#52239
08/31/2008 06:40 PM
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Very interesting tread Dave.
Lh 600
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#52240
09/03/2008 08:47 AM
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Dave, I think guides like this are excellent and have bookmarked it in case I ever buy an SS dagger. This can be Scary Stuff  to the first time buyer especially if you can't see the piece in your hand.
Rhys
(pronounced as in "Reese's Pieces")
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#52241
02/06/2010 05:22 PM
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Awesome work Dave
Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
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#52242
02/07/2010 04:22 AM
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Thanks Dave all this info is great.
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OK,Dave. I often met RZM daggers with others distances. Here the original G.Spitzer example. What do you think about it? 
Last edited by Gagarin; 04/30/2011 11:09 AM.
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You need better focus and a lot more pictures 
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You need better focus and a lot more pictures Dave, unfortunately I have`t Spitzer dagger now. But I paid attention at this moment earlier. Here one more on the Gottliebs site. If considering the dagger in scale, obviously distance between motto and crossguard more than 2.5 cm at Spitzer daggers.The top of the scabbard is interesting too. http://www.craiggottlieb.com/engine/inspect.asp?Item=4619&Filter=German+Militaria
Last edited by Gagarin; 04/30/2011 12:50 PM.
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Thanks Dave, this really is informative stuff! I'm going to post a few pics later of one I'm having a few doubts on . . . the main red flag is the Motto, it's an early Eickhorn . . . were the mottos ever a little further down the blade? Thanks Vinney
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Start it in a new thread, Vinney
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Joined: Sep 2000
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I could not decide without having the dagger to examine in person.
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Dave,
You want to say that dagger submitted to link may be original? This dagger has the exactly same blade as you have shown.
You think that some original Eichorn daggers may have the same wrong position logo and motto?
Thanks.
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Excellent display very informative I congratulate you.
Mates64
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Thank you all.
I still have that dagger so questions are welcome.
I am looking for more fake SS / SA daggers to do a similar analysiss. If you have one, I'd like to borrow it and will NOT reveal your name.
Dave
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New here. Great forum. I have also been trying to buy good fakes but most are sold as real. Others that have known fakes keep the because they don't want to get burned again or have them sold as real. There are so many out there though.
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Thanks to all who participated in the informative SS fake detection.VERY interesting indeed! I just got schooled! Dutchman.
"Alles Fur Deutschland"
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That was a great read and I was very impressed with the detail Dave went into. Great presentation! Thanks.
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