#52162
08/11/2007 09:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
I recently had the chance to take apart and photograph a fake SS dagger. It is one the best I have ever seen in that ALL of the parts of the knife are fake with maybe the exception og the tang nut.
I've got over 30 pictures so hang on forthe full story.
At first glance it looks like a reasonably nice SS RZM dagger.
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#52163
08/11/2007 09:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
Even out of the scabbard, it still looks good, but the more experienced guys will start to smell a rat 
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#52164
08/11/2007 09:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
Here are the faults. Start keeping a list
- The blade motto is too far down the blade
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#52165
08/11/2007 09:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The distance is way over the nominal 25mm you should expect to find.
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#52166
08/11/2007 09:18 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The same thing is true of the trademark on the back
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#52167
08/11/2007 09:19 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
Here is a real blade. Note the position. Also note that the fake one has got the trademark correct, but too low.
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#52168
08/11/2007 09:22 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The only other time I have seen this excat fake blade was the the one sent to me by 3 Finger Louie (Louis Wayne Blackburn) for examination. It was the one with the Eickhorn silverware trademark added.
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#52169
08/11/2007 09:23 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The blade is also noticeably too narrow if compared with a real one. 32mm vs what is normally 34mm
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#52170
08/11/2007 09:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The tip is ground slightly off-center. By itself this would not be a red flag as I have seen it on real blades. On this one it is another nail in the coffin
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#52171
08/11/2007 09:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The tang is slighly fatter than you expect to see
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#52172
08/11/2007 09:26 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
Now that you have seen the blade, check out the hilt
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#52173
08/11/2007 09:29 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The lower fit is not that good, but some real RZM daggers are that way. Once apart, I am convince the entire grip is a fake.
Here is the botton. That is not a wallowed out hole, but a faker's attempt to duplicate that hole in the real ones made by a mortising (sp?)chisel. It is two holes drilled on the side of the first hole.
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#52174
08/11/2007 09:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The top of the grip shows that the guy drilling the holes was not quite accurate. That little blob you see inside is epoxy resin holding in the rune button
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#52175
08/11/2007 09:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The rune button is too bright and looks like one of those fake stickpins.
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#52176
08/11/2007 09:34 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
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#52177
08/11/2007 09:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
I think that the eagle is probably a real late model zinc eagle ...maybe.
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#52178
08/11/2007 09:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The problem is that recess forthe eagle was too small and the eagle-mounter fellow tried to jam it in there, And bent it
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#52179
08/11/2007 09:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
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#52180
08/11/2007 09:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
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#52181
08/11/2007 09:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
Now if look really close, you can spot epoxy in the eagle's "armpit"
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#52182
08/11/2007 09:42 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
Also at the end of the wing. The faker tried to paint over it.
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#52183
08/11/2007 09:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
Moving on to the scabbard, I think that the scabbard might be real. It has a few quirks, but I cannot make up my mind. It had been repainted
Whatever it is, it is probably not an Eickhorn scabbard.
It (the one from the fake dagger)is on the left and an Eickhorn RZM scabbard is on the right. Note the fat throatpiece that is characteristic of the Eicks on the right.
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#52184
08/11/2007 09:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The one that came with the fake is slightly longer and has a different shape to the lower fitting.
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#52185
08/11/2007 09:51 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The fit of the throatpiece is a little off
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#52186
08/11/2007 09:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
It looks as if there are traces that it was pried out (??)
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#52187
08/11/2007 09:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
OOOPPS - Forgot to show you the crossguards. Made with a home casting set Note: - Imcomplete grooves that the faker did not bother to clean up with a file - Lower hole a little too rounded and upper hole a little too large (?) They are also about 15% heavier than normal guards.
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#52188
08/11/2007 09:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
One to the vertical hanger. Fake too
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#52189
08/11/2007 09:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The whole thing looks new. Too shiney. No paint loss to the rivets. But the clip is the obvious give-away. Cast from grey metal.
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#52190
08/11/2007 09:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
The other side of the clip confirms it
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#52191
08/11/2007 10:00 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
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#52192
08/11/2007 10:02 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
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#52193
08/11/2007 10:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68
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OP
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,978 Likes: 68 |
Well, that's it.
It is one of those things that you could pick up, look at quickly and buy without knowing. Or get it off the internet.
As I said, it is the best more or less complete fake (not just a phoney blade) I have seen so far. Hope it helps.
I still have it, so I can take more pics.
Dave
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#52194
08/11/2007 10:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 831
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 831 |
Dave, thanks for posting this thread. Could you post some better pics of the motto? I seem to see that the dots over the "i"'s are more triangular than on original mottos? Or is it just my tired eyes?? Cheers,
Tor-Helge
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#52195
08/11/2007 10:16 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 512
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 512 |
An education in what to look for Dave,thanks for posting such an informative thread,where are these being made,any ideas.
Ivan.
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#52196
08/11/2007 10:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 142
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 142 |
Thank you Dave
very valuable informations to provide loosing money
Ralf
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#52197
08/11/2007 10:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 199
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 199 |
hi dave thx for this kind of info. its what newbies like me like to see...... also the cross in the Z in the makersmark is different it is flat on the ends of the fake where the original the right end is slanted... anybody elsee see this?
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#52198
08/12/2007 12:14 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 66 |
Thanks Dave! Excellent educational piece! A real keeper in my info file.
React, Adapt and Persevere!
Adventure Expedition Specialist
X11.com
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#52199
08/12/2007 12:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
That's a classic Atwood piece right down to the fake vertical. If you train your eye you can spot those narrow blades right away. The fake SA's & NSKK's had this fault too.Also--I can't recall seeing any real SS daggers that have the late pot metal grip eagle-VERY few at best. SA's will sometimes have it. This dagger and hanger is approx 45 years old. As Dave says -there may be a few real parts on it. That new leather smell lasts quite a long time.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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1 member likes this:
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#52200
08/12/2007 04:35 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,306
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,306 |
I agree whole-heartily . . . thanks Dave, an exceptionally informative thread! Are there variations in the measurements for other SS daggers, by other makers both RZM and early maker marked?  ~ Ian
GDC Gold Badge #0204
"Even if such objects cannot change the soul of man, at least they give him an identity." - Heinrich Himmler
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#52201
08/12/2007 08:09 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915 |
Dave, an excellent and detailed study, thanks!!! Do you have a straight shot of the motto, it appears to have the "funnel M"?
Red
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