UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum New Prussian Infantry Officer Degen m89

I bought this a few months ago but just got around to taking pictures of it. After knocking Ebay in a previous post, I have to come clean and admit I got it from there. It was described as having a plastic grip but I could tell from the pictures it was probably wood. To my surprise it turned out to be horn.

The sword is WK&C and is in great condition except for the grip wire which was broke in several spots. I rewired this myself. The blade is double-fullered and measures 33 1/8 inches. The knot is dirty and fragile.

There is no Kaiser's cypher on the grip. A fellow forum member heard from Helmut Weitze in Hamburg that this is because it is a reserve degen. However, one of Weitze's staffers told me it could be a veteran degen. Perhaps this is due to a translation/language barrier, but any info about this discrepancy would be appreciated.

Finally, a big thanks to Frogprince and Orpo who gave me some sound advice prior to purchase. The forum really helped me out on this one. Max

full pic

sword knot

grip

That is a very nice sword ! T

Max,

A very pretty sword and a nice job of grip wire repair.

Max, Horn gripped examples are a lot harder to come by and I think that you did well with a very nice sword. I think that I have seen a couple of no emblem examples before, but don’t remember what my thoughts were at the time. It’s certainly an uncommon version, and if I remember or come across a reference I’ll pass it along. Best Regards, FP

PS: Good job on the rewiring.

Max,

are the metal parts of the grip magnetic, made from iron and golden eloxated? Or are they brassmade?

Regards

Kolibri

Thanks for the nice comments. I am having second thoughts, however, about photographing the degen on a purple towel.

Kolibri, the metal parts are not magnetic. I believe them to be brass. How would I know if it is "golden eloxated?"

Does anybody have any pictures on the proper way to tie the sword knot to the hilt? I have seen at least 2 different ways in Angolia's book. Should the sword knot go through the hilt?

Max.

There were a couple of acceptable ways to tie the Portepee to this sword. Here is one you may wish to use.

George

View from the reverse side. This seems to be the most commonly accepted method to tie the knot.

George

Thanks, Orpo, and that's a sharp looking eagle on the clamshell!

Max, “golden eloxated” I believe is a reference to gold anodized/anodizing (G. eloxiert/eloxierend). Which is not uncommon for Third Reich era sword hilts but not seen with Imperial era ones. With the (gold) color anodizing being applied over aluminum to give it a gold appearance. And is not at all related to how some other (specialized) collectors use the term when referring to blued or browned scabbards.

During the WW I era aluminum was a very scarce material and I have never seen an aluminum hilted Imperial sword. With probably the easiest way to tell with them being the fact that they are lightweight. And/or the presence of a silver colored alloy underneath where there is a break in the anodized surface layer.

During WW I brass itself was conserved for the production of ammunition with iron/steel substituted for brass hilts. With the iron/steel hilts being magnetic and usually painted black. Posted below are two government issued IOD89’s with the earlier example being brass hilted, and the “Kriegsmodell” below it being blued steel. Regards, FP

Fred,

there is something not correct. Until the early 1915 these IOD's were made from brass, than from iron, as you say. But there were some different versions, the black coloured and a golden coloured. These golden coloured version was eloxiert, like the late golden emblems of spiked helmets.

Another thema is the wooden (?) grip of Max IOD.
It is wrong, that officers of Reserve were not allowed to wear the WII-Chiffre. I presume, that the grip was changed after 1918 to wear the IOD during the weimar-period.

What do you think?

Regards

Kolibri

Kolibri, I’m not quite sure that we are all on the same page. At some point in the war black finished sword hilts (besides scabbards) became common, although some are seen that were gold/brass or nickel plated over iron/steel (the issue example I posted is not gold plated but many officer’s model swords were). One of the theories was that black did not reflect light as much in trench warfare. Which made sense for bayonets, but some of the swords were so diminutive and poorly constructed that they would have been virtually useless. And IMHO for them it probably had to due more with brass no longer being available.

I am not a “helmet collector” per se (except for some of the issue steel type helmets). And can’t adequately comment on the other types, because while I’ve handled some, they were not my primary area of interest. But there is no argument that the Germans produced sufficient quantities of aluminum for Zeppelins and aircraft etc. However, to the best of my recollection, I have never seen an Imperial era sword where the base metal for the hilt was aluminum either gold or black anodized. Or natural finish.

I don’t disagree at all with reserve officers having the same sword as regular officers. In fact, while there were some minor distinctions, they were still officers and generally speaking had the same prerogatives as regular officers.

As far as the sword being carried after WW I with a new grip (without the cipher) that is always a possibility with George’s sword being a prime example of same. Although it should be noted that his eagle is significantly different than the Imperial era one. And I do seem to recall some German generals, who after the war, had IOD 89s with the cipher visible in photographs. But it’s been a while since I've looked at the pictures so I’m not 100% sure. Regards, FP

George shows a very nice Weimar era example of the Model 1889 degen. The clamshell eagle is post Imperial. These are fairly scarce swords. The Coppel tm is the third tm I have observed on these Weimar 89 degens. I have an Eickhorn made one and another by Weyersberg has been posted in the past.

George, is the round pommel cap on yours removalbe or is the blade tang peened over at the pommel? I remember reading that the rounded pommel on these is for senior EM instaed of officer grade.

The grip on Max's degen is horn. The fact that it never had a royal monogram is not a problem. Weitze did have one without a grip cypher identified as a reservist's degen. More research seems to be in order here. Just as a further aside I have seen a model 89 degen with a curled musical horn pinned below the royal cypher identified as a postal officials degen. Either Johnson or Wittmann has it listed.

Max's sword can also be fairly accurately dated as pre-1906-08 by the nickled scabbard and the double hanger rings if the scabbard is original to the piece.

I don't believe that the royal cypher was removed from the grips of existing degens post 1918 anymore than the crowns were required to be removed from existing naval daggers during the pre-TR era. New manufacture obviously followed the current regulations.

Nice degens shown by all.

Tony

Tony,

My sword has a peened tang. It is shown as an Alcoso #101 in the catalog. Interestingly, Alsoco also shows the same sword with folding guard, no grip insignia, and the Imperial eagle in the guard as #259 in the same catalog. This sword is shown with a plain blade with a single fuller and a scabbard with TWO rings. There is another one in the same configuration with a fixed guard like Max's shown as a #192. This sword also has a two ring scabbard.

So, it seems that Alcoso at least continued to offer the two ring scabbard very late and well after regulations eliminated the second ring. This catalog is from around 1935-36 as it has the 1st model Fliegerdolch illustrated as #1865.

I was looking at the king and knight helm logo on Max's sword to date it earlier as well. I suspect that it is very possible these makers were using up NOS parts during the Weimar Republic so dating it may be a bit more difficult than we first thought. Max's sword might have a new-old-stock grip, blade, and scabbard or it could be pre-WWI.

Max, this may be harder than we thought. Nice sword though.

George

George, what does "NOS" stand for?

Could that fact that the portepee on my degen is fabric with a thin lining of leather also help date the degen as prewar or post? It was almost disintegrating before my eyes as I carefully removed it so I am prety sure it has been attached for some time. Of course, there is no way to prove that the portepee and degen started out together.

Finally, what is the point of having the Kaiser's cypher removed (or the whole grip replaced) if you still have the "WRII" on the Imperial eagle on the handguard?

Max,

Sorry, NOS = new old stock... an automotive term for old style new parts.

Your knot appears to be an official's style Portepee that was in use for a very long time. Could be Imperial or Weimar I suspect.

Your thoughts about the cypher are perfectly logical. The eagle in the guard of my sword is the "new" Weimar Republic eagle but they still sold swords with the Imperial eagle in the guard, along with the cypher on the chest, well after 1918. Why they would choose to remove the grip cypher and not change the guard does seem odd. But that is the way the swords are shown in the catalog. No cyphers on the grips of this circa 1935 Alcoso catalog. I also have a WKC catalog from the same period that shows them without the grip cypher. It does not seem to make a whole lot of sense but that is what the catalogs show.

George