UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Navy Honor Dagger on Ebay

Is this the real deal?Honor dagger

probably not - but i bid just in case

Compare it to the picture in Johnson's volume II, page 229. This guy is brand new to Ebay with a zero feedback. Very good description.

Looks convincing, but I can't imagine sticking something like this on eBay.

These are pics from a presumable original navy honor dagger. I have saved these certain pics (and several more) already in 2004 but how hard I try I cannot remember any more from where they did come.
I cannot imagine that such a piece will be at ebay. You might say never say never but I would be careful. I am no ebay member, could anybody (ebay-member) ask the seller for a pic from the small side (not full front or full reverse) of the pommel eagle?

Sometimes when it appears to good to be true....
it's being sold on Ebay by a brand new person. Since he does not take Paypal, if he is pulling off a scam, the buyer will lose.

Be very careful.

I cannot get the link to work. I did a property search on your link and came up with item #110029337679. I tried that on a search and it came up blank too.

Anyone else see it?

The listing has disappeared. Either removed by the Ebay Police or an offer that the the new member could not refuse.

*sigh*, i wonder where this will turn up next...

The Eban Gestapo got to it and pulled it already, no doubt alerted to it by an interested party. I didn't get a chance to see the listing, can anyone post pics?

I recall a Navy Honor Dagger being on ebay about
5 years? ago. It was sold as a copy/parts dagger back then by
a british source for about $1500 US. This could
be it resurfacing.
I also saw one in a Manions' sale, but it did not
have the correct crossguard.

Its back

Honour Dagger

Here are the pics in case it gets pulled again.

Pic 2

Pic 3

Pic 4

Pic 5

Hi Everyone,here a spare Honour Knofp,complete with diamonds,nats

http://www.militaria321.com/auction_details.cfm?auctionID=5215828

http://members.lycos.nl/stantheman/

Based on the pictures all I can say is that the dagger is totally correct and looks original. This is based on the fact that all the components are correct and have been assembled correctly. What I'm not sure of is if the pictores actually represent the item for sale or if they were 'borrowed' from some other source (happens some times). There is also a possibility that the dagger was postwar assembled from original components. But as it stands the dagger looks perfectly good and original.

I want to add that I only saw the reverse of the blade and I'm not sure if the Eickhorn TM has either faded or is missing all together. It should be there.

As already suggested, ask the seller for a "side view" pic of the pommel, then we will see if these are his own pics. If he cannot foward you with such a pic I think he is not the real owner of this piece/these pics.

AT THE JAG TOM W. SAID A GOOD COPY OF THIS DAGGER WOULD SELL FOR $2,000.

Good copies are hard to find. Many have the wrong crossguards, have the wrong throats and the wrong throat screws. This one seems to have all the right parts. The blade resembles the one shown in Tom Wittmann's navy book on page 426, at least from the available view.
The close resemblance to the originals in all details makes me suspect that the pictures could be 'borrowed'.

Pics appear to have come from here:

http://www.warelics.com/Edged%20Weapons.htm

The seller has zero feedback - it will be risky for whoever tries to purchase. After being burned too many times, I have had to adopt a healthy suspicion. I agree with Manfred and Wotan - these could be "borrowed" pictures. As usual, both of these fine GDC members have excellent instincts.

Moreover, I recall seeing a Navy Honor that sold about two or three years ago. The site was this one by Richard Williams:

http://warrelics.com/

That Navy Honor that sold at that site had very, very similar discoloration to the grip as this one. Does anyone else remember the dagger I am talking about?

Here is the cache that I was able to find from the internet. I only found it because I knew where to look. The cache URL is still there. Notice that the seller's description is very similar. It is almost like he "lifted" parts of it verbatim.

Notice the pictures also. Anything look familiar? They do to me. NOTE: the pictures you will see are from the cache of warrelics site of the dagger that sold. These pictures are still available on the internet even though the dagger sold long ago. They are NOT from the E-bay posting.

_________________________________________________________________________________

Navy Honor that sold at warrelics.com


(150) HONOR DAGGER OF THE NAVY W/ DIAMONDS ( "EHRENDOLCH DES KRIEGSMARINE MIT BRILLIANTEN" ) IN THE ORIGINAL "EICKHORN" DELUXE BLUE LEATHER PRESENTATION CASE

This is one of sixteen examples of this UNIQUELY DESIGNED and ELEGANT German naval officer's daggers, known to have been hand-crafted by the prestigious, Solingen-based "CARL EICKHORN" edged weapons manufacturer between 1938 and 1944. This special "presentation" Kriegsmarine dagger was designed, circa 1938, by the famous German artist and Third Reich edged weapons designer, Paul Casburg, for exclusive production by the "Carl Eickhorn" firm. The first known actual "presentation" of this specially-designed naval dagger was in December, 1939, when Admiral ALBRECHT was bestowed his dagger, now known "officially" as the "Honor Dagger of The German Navy". Although virtually identical to a standard, or "normal" Kriegsmarine officer's dress dagger, or dirk, in its basic design and overall dimensions, this special dagger was MAGNIFICENTLY "different" in many ways. The newly designed pommel was larger and more elegant, and the SILVER swastika was set with SEVENTEEN "diamonds" ( actually very tiny "rose-cut" diamonds, or so-called "mine-chips" ) ( Photo ). The differently shaped, genuine "AFRICAN IVORY" grip was wrapped in a 3 mm. wide gold "oakleaf" band, instead of the usual twisted brass wire. The "new" crossguard was of a simpler, more "streamlined" design, and the former "fouled-anchor" naval motif was eliminated from the new, more rectangular, center area of both sides of the crossguard ( Photo ). The most noticable and probably the most quickly recognizable design change, however, was in this new "honor" dagger's scabbard. The radically redesigned, "fire-gilded" brass scabbard was beautifully decorated, on both sides with a continuous ( vertical ) row of "raised" oakleaves and acorns ( Photo ). The 10 1/4 inch long blade is made, in the "general" configuration of all other naval dirk blades, but is rendered in a beautiful "maiden-hair" pattern, GENUINE, or "TRUE DAMASCUS" steel ( Photo ). The blade was also made by "Carl Eickhorn", although this blade, like the dagger presented to "Wolfgang Luth" ( the famous U-boat ace, and "diamonds" winner ) by Adm. Karl Donitz, does not bear the "intaglio" style "Eickhorn" logo. When disassembled, the dagger pommel is seen to be internally stamped with a "4" ( Photo ), while the crossguard is stamped either "6", or "9" ( Photo ). These internally stamped numbers, found on virtually all known original examples of this "honor" dagger, or thought to indicate assembly checks, or Eickhorn factory "accountability" numbers, and are very frequently not "matching" in a completely original piece. This particular "honor" dagger comes in its "ORIGINAL "EICKHORN" marked, so-called "second pattern", dark blue Moroccan-leather, PRESENTATION CASE, which measures 18 inches X 5.0 inches X 2.0 inches.The central portion of the case lid is decorated with a gold-foil-embossed, Kriegsmarine-style, "spread-wing" eagle and swastika, within a "smooth", or "debossed" leather rectangle. Much of the gold embossing has worn away, but the embossed design is still clearly visible ( Photo ). The bottom part of the presentation case has a plush, black velvet covering, over a thin wood underlayment, with a "cut-out", or recessed area, which accepts the "honor" dagger, in its scabbard, PERFECTLY ( Photo ). The interior of the case's lid is covered in a "padded", and contoured, white SATIN, which bears a gold-foil printed, or embossed, "1941-1945" pattern, "stylized" squirrel "EICKHORN" logo, in the right lower corner; which is about 50% "worn-off" ( Photo). The flat bottom of the case is covered in a heavy, black, "tar-paper" like material ( Photo ). The two, rectangular, brass catches, which secure the lid, have rounded, sliding bosses ( Photo ). The overall condition of this RARE, and completely ORIGINAL, "Honor Dagger of the Kriegsmarine with Diamonds" is very good PLUS. There is some slight staining of the IVORY grip, primarily on the verso, but the grip is NOT cracked, or chipped, and the very delicate, spiral "oakleaf" band is NOT broken, or repaired ( Photo ). The diamond-encrusted eagle and swastika pommel has no missing stones ( Photo ). The pommel, crossguard, and scabbard still have some of their original, factory "fire-gilding" ( Photo ). The genuine damascus blade is not rusted, or pitted, and has not been sharpened, shortened, or repointed. The beautiful "maiden-hair" damascus pattern is still very prominent ( Photo ). The brass scabbard is in overall very good PLUS condition, and not dented. The condition of the original presentation case is very good, although it does show some age and wear, and the leatherette "hinge" on the back of the case is split, but still very solidly and tightly attaches the lid to the case's bottom section( Photo ). All of the above minor defects and signs of age, and usage, notwithstanding, this is still a very nice, all- original example of a very RARE ( one of sixteen! ), ELEGANT, and BEAUTIFUL, and "CASED", "Honor Dagger of the Kriegsmarine with Diamonds"!

ONE OF THE RAREST, AND MOST BEAUTIFUL, OF ALL THE "THIRD REICH'S" DAGGERS!!!!

PRICE UPON REQUEST. SOLD

















___________________________________________________________________________________


None of this is proof or anything that this fellow does not have this dagger. Perhaps he was the buyer, and is using the old photographs. Or, perhaps he is a liar and a potential thief and fraud. Buyer beware - it is your money. I just find it hard to believe this is all a coincidence.

OK I'll say it, something stinks. The seller lifts the pics from Ron Diestelhorst's site and uses a near verbatim description, has a "0" feedback, and fails to mention where he got the pics or the piece. While Borse is right that none of this proves anything but I for one believe circumstantial evidence until proven otherwise. I think it's a scam, plain and simple.

In that case I just stick with this one because its mine and its paid for.

Ronnie Distlehorst DID indeed own Albrecht's Honor Dagger and the pictures DO look like the orignal. I have handled that dagger and the oak leaf wrap on the grip is definately the one Ronnie had in the 1970s, so it is quite possible it is his and the auction may be from him.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

The odds would have to be in favor of the same individual buying the dagger through Richard J. William's War Relics website a few years ago, and now selling the exact same dagger using the exact same old pictures that are in cache memory on the web.

Also, Sturmbrigade came to the same conclusion as I did and posted his discovery of the link a few minutes before mine. I was composing the pictures and the description to post, and he must have discoverd it the same time. Great minds think alike. Thanks Sturm.

A Navy Honor is worth (last I checked) about a quarter of a million dollars. The E-bay aution is up to $910 as I post this. Does anyone really believe they are going to get this deal of the century? Hey - maybe, right? But be careful.

Manfred - pretty dagger you have there. Love the case too.

The item has been pulled again. (For no good reason that I can see.)

This auction is a good example of several reasons why I no longer shop on ebay.

You don't know who you're dealing with, or if you'll be able to reach them in case there is a problem.

Good pictures are no comfort. They might be "borrowed". Even if they actually have the thing, there is no way to be sure that they'll send it to you. Ebay's so called "investigating team" isn't going to do you any good.

The auctions pop in and out, over and over again, for no apparent reason.

I'm sure that you can pick up some good deals, but the stress of uncertainty is too much for me. I'd rather pay extra for the guarantee.

You can call me a "lazy collector" if you want to. But, I prefer doing business with estabished dealers, whose livelihood depends upon their availability and reputation.

Just my opinion.

The auction is still running. I asked the seller for more pics and she replied, "I dont have more pictures of the dagger." "(The ones posted in the auction) are detailed enough I think." I think the listing is bogus.

That is exactly why I have asked for a certain pic which was not in the mass of wonderful pics of the original offering and could only be delivered if the seller would have this certain dagger in hands. If the seller cannot forward any more pics as the old ones existing from the years ago deal I would be extremely cautious in this certain ebay case.
Sturmbrigade, thank you very much for digging out this link. It was exactly where I once got my downloaded pics but could not remember any more.

dutchdrummer is correct - the auction is still running and is up to $2,002.

I believe someone is going to take a bath. You cannot alert bidders with information you may have any longer, because E-Bay will block your communication with that person.

Boerse: Thanks, I just finished the case yesterday.

So it is @2002 now going for $250,000. There is always hope, I guess.
I didn't see any mention of a reserve price. Maybe the 'owner' is just trying to find out how much it would fetch on the open market. The problem with that is that a collector with the means to seriously consider purchasing a dagger of that caliber would not bother participating in this here auction.

It is still running. (My mistake)

Looks like they might have a shill bidder. A member since April 2005 with a (0) history?

B�rse, you can still contact ebay members by clicking on the "community" tab at the top of the page and entering the name of the member you want to get in touch with.

This is a very fishy auction for all the reasons already given. Bidding on this would be a BIG mistake. I'm an ebay seller with thousands of feedbacks so i've been at it for a long time. I would not trust this one with a ten foot pole. The only way would be to actually meet the person and exchange the cash upon actually having the dagger in hand. They do not accept paypal only a specific type of money order and cash. This is, IMO, nothing more then a scam.

A 0 feedback seller,and a 0 feedback bidder.It would be interesting to see the end result of this auction and if the dagger is as pictured and delivered.

I contacted the seller and she(?) told me that the dagger came from Germany - uh duh!!
i asked where in Germany and was told out of an estate. She also refused eschrow, despite the fact that money bookers offers a prefectly legit service (this was one of the preferrred payment methods).I then asked if it was a coincidence that the pics were exactly the same as War relics..
no real surprise that i havent had an answer

I asked for more pics and just got some more of the same pics from War Relics. I wouldn't touch this auction with a barge pole.

I asked her what the deal was with her using the pics from the warelic site and she responded by saying that she doesn't own a camera and thus "borrowed" pictures of a dagger that we must assume is similar to the one she is actually selling. The pics in the auction are not of the actual dagger being sold.

Borrow decription info and Photos from other sites and get on ebay with no feedback and a High Ticket item. Does anyone suspect fraud he he?

Someones going to be disappointed when they paid Max$ to get a "similar" dagger in the mail..

7600 $!

I wonder who takes these kinds of risks...

Best greetings,

Herman

No sense to it at all, Just plain crazy!

Unless someone is able to get in touch with the buyer, he is going to be out $7,600.

I have more proof this sale is a complete scam. I put in a bid when the auction reappeared, and before I knew where the pictures came from.

I just received this e-mail from the seller:

_________________________________________________________________



Offer end date: Sep-16-06 08:31:54 PDT


Message from sportbaelle:
Dear member, as I own a few of the Eickhron daggers with similiar optical shape I like to use the official second chance offer for bidders below the winning bid Regards, Lise


Second Chance Offer

The seller, sportbaelle is making this Second Chance Offer because the high bidder was either unable to complete the transaction or the seller has a duplicate item for sale.

The selling of this item through Second Chance Offer is in compliance with eBay policy; you will be able to exchange Feedback with the seller and will be eligible for all eBay services associated with a transaction, such as fraud protection.

Act Now - This Offer Expires Soon

____________________________________________________________

When I clicked the link, she is offering to sell me another Navy Honor dagger for a "Buy it Now" of my nominal bid.

I guess she wants to try to clean up a little more and get some more easy cash before she tries to disappear.

Check out that bid history. There were like five or six people tripping over each other for a chance to throw their money away. All the shill had to do was sit back and watch.

And, the "Winner" lives in Israel?

What would possess someone to send that much money (basically in cash) all that way, and then just sit back and hope for the best?

For that kind of money, it may be well to make the trip to Germany. Spend $1500 on air fare and save $6000. At least you would have a holiday to remember

This is turning into a really convoluted mess. This (Albrecht) dagger does exist and had resided in the late Robert Waitts collection in the late 90s. Most of that collection was sold. If this dagger was part of that inventory sold it must have fetched about 6 figures and I can't imagine it being auctioned off at such a huge loss. The way things are I'm wondering if the real owner of the Albrecht dagger really knows that his dagger is being peddled off on ebay.

Surprise, surprise!!
the seller got back to me and acknowledged that the pic's were taken from Warrelics website as seh didnt have a camera (but can afford a navy honour dagger )I asked if she realised that was fraud... again i wait for a response

I know the buyer and I wanrned him about the scam. He will report it to the German ambassy in Israel. This dagger, he said, was sold for 35 000 USD in the past. The original seller is from Chicago (not the scam back from Germany)of the real dagger tried to contact him but e bay blocked the messages. So the buyer darigdog almost lost his 7600$. The warning came before he sent the money to Germany.

BORSE: The second chance offer is a completly different scam from another scammer! It happens with almost every item that sells for over 1,000 ob ebay. If you check out the URL you will see it is not from ebay and if you look for it "my ebay" It won't be there. Most of these eroneous second chance offers originate from Poland, Russia etc. The scammers send them to the under bidders.

Dem - actually, the second chance offer was through ebay, and I believe it was from the "seller." The URL was part of ebay cgi. She really is greedy with her scam. The link brought me to an E-bay page, with the original photos and the link to the seller, and a "Buy it Now."

Thanks for the warning on those scammer from Poland and Russia. Never heard of that before.

It looks like we all contributed to thwarting this crime. Thanks to Oleg1, the potential buyer in Israel has been alerted to the scam. Now, she will get nothing from her con job.

Moreover, the potential buyer has already left her negative feedback. Here it is!

"Fraud! All photos from website US dealer.I will inform German Police."

the potential buyer contacted me and said that he tried to warn other bidders of the scam but e bay blocked his messages. He has an attorney his said, here in the states who would file an official complaint with the state of California against E bay. That is according to the potential buyer (darigdog)

Good job Oleg1.

That "Fraud" Negative feedback is priceless.

In the end the potential buyer will probably get arrested for buying a Nazi dagger in Israel. 25 years of hard labor and forfeiture of the dagger.

Jeez - this site and all your efforts really put the hurt on old Lise's scam.

Now she has changed her feedback to "private" so no one can view the fraud and contacting the police comment.

Private Feedback
This member, sportbaelle, has decided to make their feedback comments private. Feedback can still be left for this user and the ratings left are shown above in summary format. Learn more about private feedback.

Poor thing - she hasn't been having a good week.