UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Dealer references, experiences etc

Suggestion to our moderators:

Could the forum set up an area for members to give feedback on dealers? It seems to me that, as long as personal attacks are disallowed, and feedback is limited to factual information, this could be a useful tool, especially to new collectors.

Example: Major dealer notified months ago that a piece they sell is advertised with erroneous information, piece is returned with explanation and proof, yet piece is still to this day being advertised in the same manner. Of course there will be many positive comments regarding the same or other dealers.

any thoughts?

ALthough on the surface this is a good idea is it not already available on other forums? Just a thought...

John

John
Yes it is on other places.
But, there are members who have no intention of joining other site's just to read about a dealer.

What site?

This one I believeMilitaria Collectors Forum, but it is better know as slander's r. us. Or run people down to make your self feel big forum. I feel like the elder on an immature forum like MCF forum and I am only 24, also I don't think its worth my time to even look at there is so much BS there.

A couple of forums have these sections actually.

And there are many piece's that have been either returned and relisted as not being as described, but either repaired or not of the period. This is an issue with several dealer site's.

I can post 2 piece's as examples that are either flat out bogus, or not as descibed and have been sent back, only to find themselve's listed again waiting for the next victim.

This should be public information if a clear case of misrepresentation. Of course in a diplomatic form.

That make sence Kris to have one as long as is

quote:

in a diplomatic form

I agree! As good names can be ruin if this does not take place!!

Bob very true - and the upside would be to have a one stop shop. I guess with the proper moderation and a good set of ground rules would be needed. Just think the standard can be set here...

quote:

Originally posted by John Cooper:
ALthough on the surface this is a good idea is it not already available on other forums? Just a thought...

John

I would say that if GDC had a forum where only positive reviews were allowed, it would keep the tendency to character assasinate at bay. I think that, otherwise, using the "search" function here will probably yield enough comments about a particular dealer and his wares to educate potential customers. Another thing to consider . . . not only dealers, but often, collectors, deserve praise or critique for their actions in the community.

I think that Gustavo made an excellent suggestion: I support it for 100%!

If this hobby wants to continue to grow it simply will need more trust through initiatives like this. Let's face it, we are talking about expensive stuff here: I know several starting collectors who backed out after being burned a couple of times.

The forum for sure would benefit from it by becoming a place of trust and attract more members. Why not offering is as a service to paying members only? For me, I would subscribe immediately

The serious dealers would be the biggest winners of all: they would see their business increase significantly.

As said before: it would need a set of good rules and close follow up by an experienced moderator in order to protect the dealers from annonimous attacks and to make sure that feedbacks are always well founded.

Best greetings,

Herr Mann

quote:

Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb:
I would say that if GDC had a forum where only positive reviews were allowed, it would keep the tendency to character assasinate at bay. I think that, otherwise, using the "search" function here will probably yield enough comments about a particular dealer and his wares to educate potential customers. Another thing to consider . . . not only dealers, but often, collectors, deserve praise or critique for their actions in the community.

Craig,

This type of system is in practice, and in most cases does not end up in character assassination. If someone has made a deal or looking for a reference then why not ask? we do it now, just all over the forum. Why not just have a section for it. There will always be objective opinion and no dealer can wear all hats right?.

To have a one sided "positive only" section would be silly, as everyone knows people make mistakes, and sometimes it comes down to an ethical question, and if ethics are in question? then a negative can result in a positive.

I would think that if most had issue with an item or practice they would pick up a phone rather than run to post, unless there is no resolution.

But when I see a bad piece misrepresented and have to ship the dam thing back, only to see it relisted as mint again? that is a poor standard of ethics. And a shot should be fired.

Best,

Kris

This is pretty much happening already in the individual Forums. Guys are always asking for references about specific dealers. I answered a question just this morning about Matt Calderone.

Our Code of Conduct allows specific complaints about a dealer if you have an unresolved issue with that dealer. It has been used successfully to right wrongs and expose fraud.

The reason we ask that members try to resolve complaints first is that mistakes are made both by dealers and by customers and they should be settled between the two if at all possible. The fact that an item is sold does not make it real, but ..... on the other hand, an item that is returned is not necessarily a fake. I have seen what I thought were real items being returned because some folks here did not like them.

We ask that negative comments are tied to a specific item so that both sides know exactly where the problem lies.

What we do not allow is second hand shots such as "I hear this guy sells crap, what do you guys think?".

Dave

I must add that I have seen this type of thing provide a great service as long as any statments must be substantiuated with copies of email, photo's, ... with the goal to help customer and dealer in the case of honest mistakes or to expose those whom want to profit from cheating people.

Kris's comments and analysis makes a whole lot of sense to me.
Bought, what was supposed to be a "minty" dagger from a well known dealer last month.
The dagger in question was not even a "near mint", not even an E++ but at best, an E+.
The blade was completely rusted and I even thought that he had made a mistake by sending me a wrong dagger.
I obviously did return the dagger to the "famous" dealer with some explanations. The dealer got real frustrated and told me that he would never do business with me again. I politely reminded him that in his return policies, it was clearly stated that we could return the dagger with "no questions asked".

Believe it or not, the dagger is still being posted on his web site and is still described as Mint.
At the Max and SOS show, this "famous" dealer doesn't even touch the ground 'cause he is so inflated with ego.

I'm for it and let's do it.

Why hide behind the curtains.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Hohaus:
This is pretty much happening already in the individual Forums. Guys are always asking for references about specific dealers. I answered a question just this morning about Matt Calderone.

Our Code of Conduct allows specific complaints about a dealer if you have an unresolved issue with that dealer. It has been used successfully to right wrongs and expose fraud.

The reason we ask that members try to resolve complaints first is that mistakes are made both by dealers and by customers and they should be settled between the two if at all possible. The fact that an item is sold does not make it real, but ..... on the other hand, an item that is returned is not necessarily a fake. I have seen what I thought were real items being returned because some folks here did not like them.

We ask that negative comments are tied to a specific item so that both sides know exactly where the problem lies.

What we do not allow is second hand shots such as "I hear this guy sells crap, what do you guys think?".

Dave

That's fine, but the initial suggestion was for a specific area to post these comments or questions.

Keep in mind however, that there are facets of the hobby that are black and white, for instance if something is broken? obviously its broken. If its repaired and shown to be repaired and accepted back from a dealer and then relisted, it is no longer a question of description, it is a question of ethics.

The rating system used by some of these dealers is at best horrific, I mean mint to me means mint, not put through a shredder. But then you have "Mint, Mint, Mint" the new rateing. So what is the difference between Mint and Mint Mint Mint?. I guess that would be Mint, Mint.

Now a mint is fine after dinner, but when an item is described as mint I expect it to be just that.

If I get a piece of glass that is described as Mint and its fractured in 4 places and broken in 2 others, has glue residue and has reglaze, chances are I am going to know, so to see it re-listed as mint or mint, mint, mint annoys me.

And I think they should be held accountable for it. As not only is it a dissapointment, there are costs involved and then to have a dealer get peeved over its return? Well that is just flat out unacceptable.

If you go buy a new car and it has a dent in the fender, your going to see it yes?. Imagine your dissapointment when you go to pick it up and find out that the salesman slammed it into a guardrail, what do you do?. Oh thats ok I park that side against the wall anyway?.

They have an obligation, it is not an inexpensive hobby and to carry on as some of them do is "FRAUD".

Best,

Kris

I think the idea of a "Dealers' Feedback Forum" is a terrific idea and is long overdue. Of course it's got to be monitored as well if not more than the others to ensure it's not slanderous but having a specific area to go to when wondering about a specific dealer is a good way to air beefs, not just unresolved issues. If someone has a gripe in addition to legitimate documentation to the claim, why not allow others to hear about it? And in the case where a dealer refunds someone's money where an item's authenticity is questioned only to relist the same item, it might serve as a warning to others. Things like this should be aired, if only to prevent new collectors from getting burned.

Another benefit might be to motivate some of the schlock dealers from questionable business practices. I've had a similar experiences as Pat, with a dealer's "no questions asked" being politely shuffled to the side, even though my only conflict was in the grading.

Rich,

Common sense would dictate that, if someone has an issue with an item, especially a sponsor due to their return policy's, that the complaint would never hit the forum.

Do you think if I bought a 5 digit piece from a high end dealer that I would run and blast away on a forum? Not a chance, not with those 5 digits out there. And even after the fact as it will be resolved.

This is where the gray area becomes an issue, in that if an SS collector buys an item and judges it as not in his tastes, or hokey? that does not mean the item is bad, and he can send it back. It would never hit. As what he considers bad may differ to what another SS collector has seen and knows to be acceptable.

However in the same aspect, there are pieces that are indisputably fake or fantasy and are black and white. It would be easy to moderate as anyone can see the difference and apply the logic.

99% of the comments I see on this forum and one of the others is positive, but if you have a dealer with a banner or without, that blatently misrepresents a piece and ends up re-listing it after confronted with evidence?

He should be called to the carpet for an explanation!. This would be a rare occurance, but would in fact play in to protect the hobby as well as the persons who I would hope in the future keep it alive.

What your saying is, because a dealer has a banner or is a sponser, that give's him license to decieve in a clear cut case of mis-useing the trust that has been granted to him in the hobby by having his name in lights.

This is also unethical and has a monatary bias.

Kris

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Yankowski:
On at least one site I've noticed that if a 'sponser' dealer is brought to task,either the member questioning that sponser is quickly ganged up on by mods,or suspended from the site(or both).I feel that if a dealer sponsers a site,then they should be above reproach.Sure,they might make a mistake now and then,but if they make too many mistakes won't their integrity be in doubt(and that of the site,since managment allows them to use the site for advertising).
I am not pointing fingers at any of the 'banner' dealers at this site!I am just trying to put forward a worst case scenario.

Rich,

Well this is your catch-22, and keep in mind I am not endorsing a lynch mob either. Sponsors are important, but so are ethics. Personally I try and refrain from beating up dealers as to be honest, if they get something I want? Im screwed. On top of that whats the point unless you have an agenda.

What you see on other sites are guys who come in and take a dealer site and run through their entire inventory and beat the hell out of everything, many of these guys are collectors for short periods of time, and once one guy starts, others follow. And they do it with fake names. I would not say anything about a dealer on a forum that I would not say to them in person.

You take a section for people to inquire, your going to get a very high percentage of positive result's. However, if you have issue as just as the rules state now, you can post your grievance. The only difference is if you purchase an item and it is clearly bad and you have respected opinion within that field to back it up. And that piece is re-listed after its returned as mint or whatever?.

Well, I am of the opinion that in fact crosses an ethical border, in which their sponsorship is a risk to the hobby and the collectors within it. In other words? they are open game and should be called on it. Its just a very clear line to me, but naturally it would need to be moderated.

And dealer's cannot be beyond reproach in any circumstance, you cant pay for the ability to decieve or to pass off your mistake's. When you take the title of dealer, you have a responsibility to the enthusiast's.

And condition's? well I have seen mint from many dealer's and obviously some people have problems with their sight. They have a return policy they take it back and smile. That is their job.

Best,

Kris

Well, it would be a forum that would require some pretty strict moderation attention. I personally would like to see praise as well as criticism, though. I think it would go a long way toward engendering a positive feeling. It'd sort of be like "feedback" on Ebay. You could do a search on the feedback forum. Imagine the effectiveness of a potential buyer coming to the forum to do a search on "John Smith" and finding 35 threads in the past month singing said dealer's praises. If there were 150 praises, and one complaint, the complaint could be taken in context. If there were tons of complaints, it would really say a lot about a dealer.

I like your idea Craig my ebay feedback has gread meaning to my business and has a big impact. Complaining about dealers has never gone over big on this forum and I see no place for it. A system of ebay style feedback makes sense where you can go to a dealer list submit your item number from his invetory and give a postive neutral or negative rating with short comment what say yea all.

i for one would love to see on GDC a section where dealers are rated, perhaps in the ebay style, or a 5 to 1 star system or similar, then you click on the name and you can see the actual feedback from various customers. Tight control from moderators to ensure no character assasination or any personal attacks, and feedback is kept factual.

as someone who works in sales i love to experience great customer care, true expertise and integrity (lakeside, Gottlieb etc etc), but i just hate being taken forgranted and treated like a sucker (wont mention any names here...). I enjoy this hobby a lot and i think this forum is what new collectors need, to learn, have fun, and hopefully avoid getting burned. Dealer info/feedback is, it seems to me, a necessary part of that...

I for one am against it. It seems to be as Rich Y. said a double edged sword. If you ask the right questions first and get the propper photos, then you should be alright if the dealer has a return policy. It seems you get to read more about negative comments than a positive from an experience with a dealer. If at all when someone gets a beautiful dag,rarely do you real about so and so's great dag he sold you. What you do read about is statements like ,My most recent purchase. It would be nice to read ,example, Just picked up from Lakeside, beautiful Rad, etc.I think that this site recently has taken a turn for the better and it seems to be where I want to post and read any comments!!

This is an interesting thread but IMO quite "one-sided". Craig's suggestion to include the buyer in the ratings has been ignored for the most part. Is this fair? Also -IMO buyer's Names with City and State and Country would have to be listed-not just a "nickname" that can be easily changed. This is the other side of the coin and I doubt that many would want to "turn it over". But IMO this is only fair way to do this. It's easy to stand behind a tree and shoot arrows-let's step out in the open road!!

The admin of this site will need to take a hard look at this idea. While it would be nice to be able to post positive comments about transactions with Named (professional) dealers. It could develop into negative campaign because of a buyers temper, based on the text of the sales ad and e-mail’s with said dealer.

Add to that, no person who has worked real hard to make a named for themselves with these dealers, would want to cut off the supply of good items.

I could show a few transactions that have happened over the past five years on some site's that would place that dealer in question. Why bother. After the error was noticed they fixed it, but only after others posted comments (Neg) about it.

This is how I look at this as a hobby, (since I have a real job and don't need to scramble to pay any bills). There isn't a single person in this hobby that hasn't made at least one error in buying or selling. The only thing that counts are how you fix the problem and learn from it.

As to ebay rating system? Not a bad idea, but who is going to write the program? Who will monitor it? I think all NEG postings will require that the person submit all emails, pics etc to the manager of this section. Then that person will decide if the posting is allowed.

Bob is right-this is a very complex and sensitive issue-it would take a lot of time and would be very difficult if not impossible to fairly moderate and --could the moderator himself be a buyer or seller? Could he have close friends that are? Would he be accused of taking sides? I doubt if God would be willing to do this. We don't live in a perfect world where all things are "right" As both a buyer and a seller I don't see how this can be done "right" being fair to both sides.

In order to have a proper Ebay type feedback system, it has to be connected to the item in question. Add in the fact that software would be indeed needed and you have the second problem.

And whats the difference between leaving negative feedback and posting a negative experience, would you be stopped from posting negative feedback?. Its a conflict or an oxymoron.

Houston has a scary point, most of these negative posts are done by people that are hidden behind tree's, Im not, and I am not about to jump out and attack a top dealer, as I am a buyer. And I dont know who is going to put up an item I want. Not that I have a beef anyway.

But there are some guys out there that walk the line, and some that cross it. I dont really have a negative experience with any dealer over a transaction, they send me items, I pay for them and its done. I think I have sent 1 item back in 7 years and I think I made a mistake by doing that, as I thought it was bad.

That dealer did not say boo about taking it back and at that time I was not buying like I have in the last 2 years.

But to just put up a section for inquiry would be no different than what we have now, there will just be a dedicated place for it, with pretty much the same rules, and if some mo-mo wants to trash someone with an alias and 2 posts, I think people will be able to see where the issue is.

No need to over complicate it.

Best,

Kris