UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Engraved Wilhelm Krieger SA and two others !!

Just wanted to post a few pics of my latest SA�s ! Have been at least a year since I bought an SA but got hold of these from two great friends aswell as GDC members, thanks !!
It�s an Wilhelm Krieger with a nice engraved scabbard, one Eick with a Large Oval "serrated tail" MM and an Eick Ground R�hm "Name only".
The daggers are in great condition with nice even patinas on them. The Ground R�hm SA has quite a lot of greying on the blade but the inscription (less the Ernst R�hm offcourse) and the MM is still intact and has no grinding on them. Not mint but IMO these three specimens have a lot of character !!
Enjoy, Hakan

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Hello Hakan,
I am sorry, the engraved scabbard is in my opinion a fake, The correct German diction is " Zur Erinnerung an unsere Freundschaft "

Regards

Winfried

Totally agree with Hellracer some one has ruined a Macsaar 10 rated dagger send it back pronto wouldnt be one for my collection

H�kan.

A threesome is one of the good things in life, and i enjoy those in the pictures
I have no opinion about the dedication, so i leave that to the exsperts.

Best Regards
St�le

The other thing to look for with period engraving is patina which this doesn't have.

i'm not comfortable with the style of writing on the scabbard fitting,it could be right but i have my doubts.

It should read unsere if it was period not an uns Still think it's a post war attempt to enhance a dagger which has actually devalued it

Thank you for your replies and inputs guys, much appriciated !
The seller has already offered to take it back
himself so there will be no worries regarding the engraved one.
What did you guys thought of the other two SA�s then !!
Cheers, Hakan

I am new this website, but I saw the posting for an engraved Wilhelm Krieger and wanted to say tah I purchased mine at the MAX show from Serge Mashe. Engraving says S.A Zur Erinnerung (first line) an uns Freindschaft (second line) 25 -12-34
(third line) Max (forth line) I hope that this is not the one you had. I bought my mint conditioned S.A Bismarck from Thomas Wittman last year. I will post a picture when I figure out how to do so. Fittings were grimey when I got it, so I cleaned the fittings. Blade is not mint, but exc to exc plus. Scabbard is in presentable shape with 70 percent laquer.
Charles

I see that this IS the exact dagger pictured. But I had Thomas Wittman, and the folks at Johnson Refernce books and Miltiaria, as well as Wayne Techect. Nobody said it was a post war engraving. I still like it. I have looked for 10 years for a Wilhelm Krieger. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Essentially was saying before the computer deleted my sentence that all the people who are leaders in the business had nothing negative to say. I trust Thomas Wittman, since I purchased all but this dagger and a cased TENO honor badge from him. He is a respected dealer. I've spent over 20,000 dollars on militaria from him, and its top notch.

but the sentence isnt right and if you have bought a dagger with the same inscription you should also send it back

Wilhelm, even the best make mistakes.

A misspelled inscription is not defensible, case is closed - Non period.
If you want to argue that the inscription is in fact spelled correctly, that is another matter.
But if its accepted that its misspelled, thats all she wrote.

Hi
I agree with Hellracer

quote:

I am sorry, the engraved scabbard is in my opinion a fake, The correct German diction is " Zur Erinnerung an unsere Freundschaft "

I also think that you should show your scabbard on a good German forum, you will see the result
Cheers

Personally I would like to hear from a native speaking German on this one.

Fom my understanding of the German language, "unsere" "unseren" "unserer" , etc. can be abreviated to "uns" and this may be acceptable for an inscription.

Additionally the word "freindschaft", which appears to be a misspelling of "freundschaft", is (I am 90% sure) propper for the northern German dialect.
I know a professional german translator whom I can ask this Sunday, but I believe that "freindschaft" is used in the northern dialect for "freundschadt".

It is interesting to me that this is a Christmas dated piece, if original, it was obviously given as a Christmas present.

Good hunting,
Johnny

When i bought it at the MAX three years ago I got the "OK" on it from a couple of experts too.
In any case, if Charles is not happy with the item he can send it back for a full refund.

Just hope you didn't make her all shiney...I hate that.

-serge-

"Have you seen a million dollars? Just because you haven't seen it, does not mean it does not exist". I forget the movie that quote came from, but it can apply to this dagger. As another member wrote on the GDC site as an in general remark, that you pretty much don't see younger collectors at these militaria shows...without people like me (younger collectors 30 and under years old) the future of the hobby does not look as bright as it did years ago. In my opinion, I like the dagger. It seems like it will be an ongoing debate. If anyone ever is in Maryland and wants to see it in person (time willing) I would be glad to show it.

Sorry to say but this dedication is absolutely crap! It is the style, the fonts, the brand new look, the several mistakes in spelling. A truely laughable attempt of faking.
I really wonder how serious members here try to explain the unexplainable.
Hey, folks, take a close look, this king does not wear any clothings!
And again a proof that even the "big ones" do not know much about period engravings and what to look for. Or perhaps they didn�t want to make a destructive judgement. I dare to doubt that one of them did say "Yes, this is an original, period engraving".
Regards,

Nice. So many naysayers, but nobody is showing me their own collection pieces with engravings that are similar so I can compare. No ultimate authority on the matter is responding on here. Armchair quarterbacking this topic will never prove or disprove this engraving. Lets see how many class three firearms will be called fake if they are firing over 1100 rounds a minute down the range! Guess a person must walk on top of water to prove that things are on the up and up! No.... not on this website....good luck with your collecting of whatever it is you collect.

Don't you think that "Maid inn the USA" stamped on an American item would be cause for concern ?

Johnny V raised a legit possibility, I would also like to see this thrashed out by those with a high command of German language.

If its misspelled, its over, I can't even see the point of arguing about it.
Not everything requires a decades long body of knowledge, some things are just common sense.
Bad spelling on something like this would not be accepted, it would be shame & dishonor on the engraver, major embarrassment for the owner.

They would have gotten another fitting, and did it right.

wilhelm krieger s/a,
You said you liked it no matter what anyone said now you are upset because people still do not like your upper fitting or rather the way it is worded. You said you were happy so I do not see why you are upset? Also in response to your post of spending 20K $$ on items from a dealer whom you trust; Mistakes are made in this hobby at 2 dollars and and 200,000 dollars by dealers and collectors alike. You should consider someones opinion such as Wotan's to be informed and not off the cuff. If you are happy with your item and not looking for opinions then it shouldnt bother you. I know that for a fact people like Tom Johnson are not the biggest fans of forums and how they can skew opinions of legit items. They indeed do have a down side but also consider the upside of it. I for one would value Wotan's opinion on this matter.
Bret Van Sant

You can take this mans opinion to the bank and personally I consider him to be one of the finest authority�s on edge weapons in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by wotan:
Sorry to say but this dedication is absolutely crap! It is the style, the fonts, the brand new look, the several mistakes in spelling. A truely laughable attempt of faking.
I really wonder how serious members here try to explain the unexplainable.
Hey, folks, take a close look, this king does not wear any clothings!
And again a proof that even the "big ones" do not know much about period engravings and what to look for. Or perhaps they didn�t want to make a destructive judgement. I dare to doubt that one of them did say "Yes, this is an original, period engraving".
Regards,

quote:

Originally posted by wilhelm krieger s/a:
Nice. So many naysayers, but nobody is showing me their own collection pieces with engravings that are similar so I can compare. No ultimate authority on the matter is responding on here. Armchair quarterbacking this topic will never prove or disprove this engraving. Lets see how many class three firearms will be called fake if they are firing over 1100 rounds a minute down the range! Guess a person must walk on top of water to prove that things are on the up and up! No.... not on this website....good luck with your collecting of whatever it is you collect.

This is NOT the correct response Sir.
You should be thankful instead of being angry.
I know that the truth is often difficult to accept but in this specific case, you've no choice.
Funny how people will believe any unacceptable logic when it comes to their dagger.
Wotan is a highly respected member and he knows what he is talking about.

you even don't need to see anything to compare, there is language common sense enough for.

Inscription is totaly wrong.Easy to spot for a natural german speaker,sorry.

Hi
thanks, Tobau
MfG

@ wilhlm krieger s/a: Sorry, the truth is not always nice, kindly and comfortable.
Dear fellow collectors, thank you for your thoughts, words and support.
Regards,

Hi we have all been "there" in this hobby and no matter how much you may "will" an item to be "good" it doesn't work...at the end of the day if you like it and can live with opinions that is all that matters...as for TW I have both bought and sold to him for well over a decade...I purchased an NSDAP medal group from him that was pictured in his Offering as "mint" when it arrived there was zero gilt left to the NSDAP medal when I called him he stated that he had just decided to branch into medals and was not aware that it was supposed to have a finish...everyone makes mistakes...not everyone can admit them like Tom can...Tom is an accepted expert on daggers but not necessarily on engravings or the German language cheers, Ryan

I�m German and I can confirm that the inscription is wrong.

The inscription on the dagger in question says

"Zur Erinnerung an uns Freindschaft ..."

It must be in correct German:

"Zur Erinnerung an unsere Freundschaft ..."

In English it says "In remembrance of our friendship ..."

The word "our" in German is written wrong ("uns" is wrong, "unsere" is correct) and also it must be an "u" instead of an "i" in the word "Freundschaft" (friendship).

Since I�m German, I can clearly say this would be red flag for me at the dagger in question. I�m quite sure that nobody in Germany would have engraved these words as on the dagger. Especially not when the dagger should be a present to someone.

Hello,
Personalized daggers are my main intrest in this hobby, i hav and do own over 30 army daggers that have been personalized a few sa's a few 1st lufts and a nice ss, you really do get a feeling after you have handled a bunch of them, i try and at least handle every personalized dagger i come in contact with to get an idea of the originality. I have many with just initals and a few inscriptions, I am no german language expert but would definetly like to hold it in hand, it is a fact that some edged weapons were personalized outside of Germany. i would like to run my fingers across the engraving, have any of the previous owners ever cleaned the dagger?

Charles, some of the most respected guys in the hobby are speaking.
Serge has stepped up and offered to take it back. Something he doesn't have to do but certainly speaks to his integrity. You should give this serious thought.
Finally, Wotan though not often outspoken is likely one of the most knowledgable and experienced guys I know. When he speaks I give his words great weight.

Without a doubt a terrible engraving, with respect to style and linguistics. I've made dumb mistakes before myself also, so I don't blame Serge for making such a basic mistake. Things can be "fast and furious" at shows, and even the most basic thing can slip by in the heat of the moment.

It is thought by some that even Sepp Dietrich honor sword given to him by the men of LSSAH office corps has a mistake on it (the same name twice) explain that ?

quote:

Originally posted by zorro:
It is thought by some that even Sepp Dietrich honor sword given to him by the men of LSSAH office corps has a mistake on it (the same name twice) explain that ?

Hello Zorro,

please can you detailed report your statement ?

Best

Wittmanns SS book page 543. The name is Klinger not shown in that book.

quote:

Originally posted by zorro:
Wittmanns SS book page 543. The name is Klinger not shown in that book.

What do you think about this sword,ok it is not the right section here,but an interesting topic here!I ever asked me if this sword a period one ?!Such a big present from all LSAH leader officers and not a one photo document of this awarding procedere !From the most awarding ceremonies for KC1 (EK1) medals to common soldiers exists photos , but not a one for such a big officer gift procedere.

quote:

Originally posted by tobau:

quote:

Originally posted by zorro:
Wittmanns SS book page 543. The name is Klinger not shown in that book.

What do you think about this sword,ok it is not the right section here,but an interesting topic here!I ever asked me if this sword a period one ?!Such a big present from all LSAH leader officers and not a one photo document of this awarding procedere !From the most awarding ceremonies for KC1 (EK1) medals to common soldiers exists photos , but not a one for such a big officer gift procedere.

My point is that everybody makes mistakes and sometimes big ones.

quote:

Originally posted by ivbaust:
I�m German and I can confirm that the inscription is wrong.

The inscription on the dagger in question says

"Zur Erinnerung an uns Freindschaft ..."

It must be in correct German:

"Zur Erinnerung an unsere Freundschaft ..."

In English it says "In remembrance of our friendship ..."

The word "our" in German is written wrong ("uns" is wrong, "unsere" is correct) and also it must be an "u" instead of an "i" in the word "Freundschaft" (friendship).

Since I�m German, I can clearly say this would be red flag for me at the dagger in question. I�m quite sure that nobody in Germany would have engraved these words as on the dagger. Especially not when the dagger should be a present to someone.

you said it all,Ingo

Gerd

This one looks like a fake dagger,see how far the maker mark is of centre, nats

That's the number one problem with ALL engravings, whether it be on the blade, scabbard or fittings, it is nearly impossible to prove if it was done period or not.
There's no such things as "textbook" when it comes to engraving as they were mostly custom made, and there could be hundreds of variables.
These are also extremelly easy to duplicate.

quote:

Originally posted by nats:
This one looks like a fake dagger,see how far the maker mark is of centre, nats

Nats, can you post a close up of the makers mark? Thanks!

Hi ivbaust,If you check this maker mark with the one posted at the start of the thread,you can see its not in the middle,nats

Thanks for the close up, Nats. I fully agree. The logo is way off the location where usually the Krieger makers mark should be. The midline of the blade usually runs through the left line of the letter "R" of the last name KRIEGER.

Hard to imagine that the company released such a dagger. However, nothing is impossible.

Front view

quote:

Originally posted by tobau:

quote:

Originally posted by zorro:
Wittmanns SS book page 543. The name is Klinger not shown in that book.

What do you think about this sword,ok it is not the right section here,but an interesting topic here!I ever asked me if this sword a period one ?!Such a big present from all LSAH leader officers and not a one photo document of this awarding procedere !From the most awarding ceremonies for KC1 (EK1) medals to common soldiers exists photos , but not a one for such a big officer gift procedere.

Tobau , there are period photo's of that sword where you can see that there actually putting the names on the blade , it is really no postwar piece .....