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Lost wax casting HAS been around forever, but the fact still remains that a die-stamping or pressing method would be 100 times more practical for mass production of thousands of rings. Not only would it be more expedient, but the "stampings" would be more uniform, and without the typical casting imperfections. I've just told you WHY this method was likely used. CRAIG - Now you tell us WHY casting was used. Simply saying that "it's been around for X number of years" doesn't count. You're now in charge of the Gahr factory. What are the advantages of lost wax casting?
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Jim M - There IS only one reason for the seam behind the skull, and that is for sizing. This is true whether the ring is made as a circle or made flat. If it started as a circle, the circle was simply cut, both ends were filed to make them shorter, then pressed together, and soldered. If starting out as a flat bar, the band was most likely fed through a machine which bends it circular, and then it was soldered. Regardless how it started, the final EXACT sizing was hand filed, and placed over a sizing mandrel before soldering.
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I just e-mailed Don to ask him how he knows. I find it hard to believe that Don knew Herr Peicl, but never asked him how they were made. Let's see what he says.
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Q: “The one issue I would like to see addressed is: What was the purpose of the joining seam ...... ?”
A: “The ..... reason for the seam behind the skull ..... is for sizing ..... whether the ring is made as a circle or made flat .....”.
From individual to individual, finger size is going to vary quite a bit. Most of the rings (of all types) that we see in general circulation that have been sized. Were sized to accommodate the wearer, and have the seams on the bottom where it is the least visible.
With the TKR the seam not only allowed sizing, with the Skull concealing the seam. The uppermost seam location also allowed the symbolism of the exterior design to be preserved intact.
Some of the rest is going to require a little thought to better illustrate some of the issues.
Best Regards to All, Fred
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quote: I just e-mailed Don to ask him how he knows. I find it hard to believe that Don knew Herr Peicl, but never asked him how they were made. Let's see what he says.
PS: Something else that could be asked of him is the exact original German word or expression that was used. Having seen multiple examples where something was misinterpreted. Sometimes with long lasting errors being perpetuated and becoming "facts" that have no actual basis, but keep getting repeated from one generation of collectors to the next. FP
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Over the last years there have been many threads, mostly about badges and medals, that have shown items to be reproductions because of casting flaws in the fine detail. Usually minute bubble or blank spaces. I remember a bad NSKK or SS chain for the same reason.
A question from someone who does not collect these:
Would it be possible to cast the detail on these rings with no traces of faults ? I am thinking primarily of the detail of the small skull. Especially the teeth.
Dave
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quote: Over the last years there have been many threads, mostly about badges and medals, that have shown items to be reproductions because of casting flaws in the fine detail. Usually minute bubble or blank spaces. I remember a bad NSKK or SS chain for the same reason.
A question from someone who does not collect these:
Would it be possible to cast the detail on these rings with no traces of faults ? I am thinking primarily of the detail of the small skull. Especially the teeth.
Dave
Dave, As we already know, defects like porosity and related issues are not just a problem with some fakes. But ones that sometimes affect certain industrial applications and there are multiple ways to either defeat or at least minimize their appearance. So the answer to the question is that: The mere absence of voids is not an absolute indicator that an item is good. But their presence should be a red flag for a much closer look at the item in question. As for the small details that is really (IMO) a separate topic. And ties in more closely with some earlier comments. Needing some more work to replace some of the information/images that are not my own, or the forums intellectual property. Best Regards, Fred
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Dave, perfect pieces are made every day without fault lines , pock marks,,burns, etc. There are technical production shops that deal with permanent mold, die casting, centrifuges,, vacuum,, pressure/injection techniques all the time making a variety of super intricate parts..
To make a HR is actually on the simple side.. It is the cost to make that first one that is prohibited. There are collectors that already have the exact composition of the metals used in the alloy 'batch', so between the 2 a perfect copy could be made..
Luckily shops that do that kind/type of work don't have the time to play around blueprinting up a ring on the computer and all the other steps involved that it would take . They make their real money with government jobs/contracts and research and development work.... Besides, even if you flooded a shop with money to make you the tooling to make a ring, if they caught on even the slightest hint that the item could be used to deceive or a fraudulent practice that would be it, game over, project terminated....
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My family is in ring making business for 4generations. I've been making repro Honor rings for a while using die struck method. If interested I can share the process.
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This is how it all starts - flat.
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Note the incorrect form of triangle, square and other figures. When bent they "will come out right". That's the most tricky part of making die - to calculate the correct angles. In diferent sizes there will be very, very minor diference.
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Next step - engraving. Nothing much to say - just simple cutting. Last name engraved is for friend of mine reenactor (do not look for this name on lists  )
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And now just cut to size, solder, attach head, clean soldering seam and you're done. Simple.
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Hapur:
Would you please post a picture of the mold(s) you are using to do this?
Jim
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Hapur, With all of the recent discussions here and elsewhere on TKR ring manufacture I finally get to see one that is die struck. Thank You !!! . I for one, and I would imagine for most of the other participants, would like to see as many pictures as would care to share with us. Especially a closeup or two of one or more of the Runes with a little of the surrounding area, and the fixture/tool that was used to form it into a circle if it wasn’t done by hand. This is fascinating stuff!!! Best Regards, FP
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Welcome to the forum Hapur.. Many thanks for sharing the photos with us..,G.
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For forming a circle is used only mandrel and fingers. I've tried to use comercially made tools but in this case there is no need for them. If you have strong fingers it's easy, if not than you need to play with hammer. First thing you bend ring for soldering, it is not bent round but more like half moon. The reason is to allign both ends more accurate in all dimensions. And after soldering just mandrel and hammer. For me this is faster (I'm very lasy to get my ass out of chair and go to the table with this circle former, and even after that to get perfect roundness you need mandrel and hammer). So in my opinion it's uselees.
Sorry for my poor english, hope it's understandable.
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quote: Originally posted by Josias:
Put it this way: I would KILL to have such a device, and not have to cast each of my repro TKRings.
Have to agree for 101% with Josias. When I started to make repro TK rings I did it using casting method. But since orders kept coming in I decided not to fool arround with casting and do real deal. Josias know all the pain in ... with hand finishing casted things. For me it's wast of time and poorer quality. There is no diference what casting equipment has been used, anyway you will loose quality and there will not be absolute "Sameness" or repeatability in other words. Than add all the trouble with cutting to the correct size and engraving and attaching skull and blah, blah. After I made dies for TKring when I hear about casting them it sounds to me like dantist pulling tooth thru ass, sorry for vulgarity.
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quote: Originally posted by jim m:
If these were cast in the round what is the purpose of the seam? I've seen rings from size 7 to size 16(American measurment) so were there different size molds?* If you cut these round castings apart to resize them wouldn't the ring now be out of round? Why don't we see other types of cast ring examples with a seam if this was a common practice?
*Also if these were in fact cast round wouldn't you occasionally cast one which was the right size for the order where no resizing was necessary thus making cutting apart and a seam unnecessary? But we all know of no legitimate rings without the seam.
Just some more food for thought.
Jim
Also right for 100%. When I casted them I had made 5 or 6 rubers diferent sizes with skulls attached. I do believe Gahrs firm could afford same amount of rubbers too  . After all the hassle with touching up and hand finishing you need to engrave. You sure can engrave in round ring too, but that add's more difficulties to do it nice and alligned. So why would somebody skilled enoughgo hard way for lesser quality? Was the Gahr dumb? Do not think so.
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quote: Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
I don’t know if this helps in the discussion or not, but the image posted earlier looked like only 1/2 of a die set. And more specifically, the male or “punch” component of the set. [/url]
It's not really correct. It is master die from which the working die or female die was made. This specific ring was made without male die. There is no reason to waste labour and materials for male die in this case. And at that time noone wasted die materials. I have some dies inherited from 30ies and 40ies there is so many dies made in one single piece of metal.
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If I talk too much just ask me to shut up, but it's sunday and I have some beers.
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hapur: Keep right on going as the thinking in some quarters are going to have to be radically reversed.  Also please tell everyone how to order one of your rings and the cost. Jim
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quote: Originally posted by jim m:
hapur:
Also please tell everyone how to order one of your rings and the cost.
Jim
Just email me minaeff at yahoo.com and let me know the size of ring and text you would like to be engraved. I think $80.00 including engraving would be fair enough price.
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Do you have a picture of a finished ring with skull?
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quote: Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
With changes forced upon them by the need to speed up production and economize for the war effort - using stampings instead of the more traditional forging and machining processes. There is not a one to one equivalency as to what is available now as compared to 70+ years ago. And believe that things have to taken in the context of what was commonly available during the time that an item was made.
From this angle of view compare stamping and casting. When I use my baby (german made 1934 press, which is approx 7000 pounds of iron,it uses electricity for few seconds for every item, and thats it, no more energy just hand job). Now compare with casting huge amounts of wasted energy (flask burnouts, which takes many many hours of very high temp in oven, wax melting, injection, energy for hand finishing tools etc) and materials wasted as investment, wax and so on. Think about this.
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quote: Originally posted by 11C:
Do you have a picture of a finished ring with skull?
Not on this comp. Will finish this one and show you.
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quote: Originally posted by hapur: quote: Originally posted by Gaspare:
6 years ago I wanted to finally go ahead and start working on a book about private purchase rings. I had been gathering info etc. I decided to go to NYC and interview a few old time jewelers. I showed each one a 3rd Reich period ring. I asked them how this ring was made back in the late 30's/early 40's.. All said about the same thing, Carved model,,wax pieces put together,,'Investment cast',,made in the round, etc.etc..
I'll try to explain this thing. The wealthier country the wealthier are jewelers. so they can spend more money on diferent equipment. As soon they get equipment that allows to avoid some steps requiring skills and hand job they start to forget these skills. And if with modern casting equipment practically everybody can do casting in kitchen there is no need fo engravers that can cut dies. And since there are cnc equipment engraver are not needed at all. So nobody today teaches engravers for making dies. So today they are dynosaurs. Today technology is not made for making certain design, but oposite. Look on modern jewelry design, it has been made on computer, wax has been cut by cnc - design have been projected keeping in mind how machine can cut and what it can cut. And that means that casting is more versatile, you make some and see if this product is needed, if yes fine, just keep casting, if not - no big deal wasted just piece of rubber and some time creating wax patern. Steel die is investment, and expensive one. So if you are not sure there will be need for it you do not make it. And try to imagine modern jewelry that is needed in thousands and thousands pieces guaranteed? Actually versatility and available casting equipment are main reasons why die struck jewelry has been forgot.
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Interesting and enlightening discussion.
Hapur,
It would be interesting to see a photo of your 1934 "Baby" also.
Cheers and thanks,
Pauli
In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944
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quote: Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
There were (and still are) machines such as rolling mills. But with a punch that looks like it has a fairly flat face, and flat back. And being reasonably certain that it was at one time paired with a corresponding die. With all due respect to everyone concerned. How would they have been mounted and used? In the context of the early 1930’s/40’s, with something other than a conventional punch (or coining) press?
This particular design from Gaspare picture can not be struck using rolling mill. Rolling mill can be used on flat and same width design. Pattern have to bee engraved on one roll other roll stays flat. then just slide piece of metal thru it. Sometimes you can make forming roll without engraving directly on roll, it can be done using master die and one roll "raw"(I mean not forged), but forging sure is needed after. Also there is possible use of rolling mill with regular dies. Simply let die and forming material thru rolling mill.So use of rolling mill and punch press use is the same process. Sure these dies rolled thru rolling mill will not survive for long time, but it is possible.
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Hapur, A very interesting presentation. And one that is going to help bring a lot of new focus on the making of rings. “There is no diference what casting equipment has been used, anyway you will loose quality and there will not be absolute "Sameness" or repeatability in other words.” I’m in agreement. While modern commercial precision investment castings generally conform in most parameters. They are not going to be as exact a copy as a die cast one. Or a stamping such as a coin. “It's not really correct. It is master die from which the working die or female die was made. This specific ring was made without male die. There is no reason to waste labour and materials for male die in this case. And at that time noone wasted die materials. I have some dies inherited from 30ies and 40ies there is so many dies made in one single piece of metal.” Are you suggesting that Gaspare’s die is some kind of “hobbing” (Abwälzverfahren) die? I have not seen this exact ring in a finished condition, so what I posted was my best estimation. But if the body of the ring is the same gauge metal as the band portion. How was the ring made with only one die without something to push against to form the metal? For example: How would a stamping press make an automobile hood with curves from just one die. Without some kind of mirror image die to force the metal into the desired shape? "From this angle of view compare stamping and casting. When I use my baby (german made 1934 press, which is approx 7000 pounds of iron,it uses electricity for few seconds for every item, and thats it, no more energy just hand job). Now compare with casting huge amounts of wasted energy (flask burnouts, which takes many many hours of very high temp in oven, wax melting, injection, energy for hand finishing tools etc) and materials wasted as investment, wax and so on. Think about this." Your “baby” (I like that) sounds like one of the machines that were made to last a very long time - which is a good thing. Not like some of the ones today. I'm assuming that it is a conventional punch press - instead of a coining press (Prägemaschine)? "I'll try to explain this thing. ....... “with modern casting equipment practically everybody can do casting in kitchen” ...... Actually versatility and available casting equipment are main reasons why die struck jewelry has been forgot." That’s certainly one of problems we have now. There are still a fair number of professional manufacturing jewelers who custom make rings which are cast. But we also have some schools that have classes for adults in casting and making jewelry as a hobby. With some of the students deciding to go into business for themselves with dishonest intentions. Thank You for joining in on the discussion and sharing your knowledge and experience. With my Best Regards, FP Below: “Sameness”. (And yes, I cheated a little using the same nickel plated steel dagger chain link.) But I think the image is still a good example of what items that were die struck look like - which is all the same. With perhaps some occasional very minor imperfections, all alike from one dagger to the next by the same maker. And considering the fact that they were stamped from sheet steel not a softer metal. I think that the skulls and teeth look really good.
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I should add one thing here that I spent about 10 years living next door to the owner of one of the largest tool and die making shops in the Mid West. Eric and I had numerous conversations about moldmaking and casting and I spent many hours in his shop observing what was going on. His shop,for example, made all the molds out of aluminum for the NFL football helmets and also all the molds for GMs dashboards. This was long before I had any interest in Tk rings and the like. The one thing I came away with from these discussions from long ago was that die casting was the way to go for uniformity and precision. In his opinion rubber mold casting and the like was only useful for amateur efforts and one off jewelry works.
Jim
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That sounds about right to me with a Caveat or two. For series production of commercial/industrial items permanent molds are preferred because the results are much more consistent. Aluminum is not a problem. But where one of the Caveats comes into play is with some high temperature and/or high tech metals that don’t do well with permanent molds.
Where the other one comes into play is with “one off jewelry works”. With them, the process to try and create rings good enough to fool the collecting public is an evolutionary one. With constant improvements until they get to the “superfake” stage. Which is where we seem to be now, judging from some of the comments that I have seen of late. And the rubber molds/wax rings give them the flexibility they need to make those improvements. FP
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quote: Originally posted by hapur: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"): Are you suggesting that Gaspare’s die is some kind of “hobbing” (Abwälzverfahren) die? I have not seen this exact ring in a finished condition, so what I posted was my best estimation. But if the body of the ring is the same gauge metal as the band portion. How was the ring made with only one die without something to push against to form the metal? For example: How would a stamping press make an automobile hood with curves from just one die. Without some kind of mirror image die to force the metal into the desired shape? In old times that was done with soft puanson, wide variety of them. Even cardboard was used as male die. In old times that was done for few reasons. First to cut moldmaking expenses, second to make sure that even lovwer qualiefied personal can not brake dies, and speed is the same, results are the same, why to go hard and expensive way. Below is pic how ring from Gaspare die will look Your “baby” (I like that) sounds like one of the machines that were made to last a very long time - which is a good thing. Not like some of the ones today. I'm assuming that it is a conventional punch press - instead of a coining press (Prägemaschine)? My "baby" is friction screw press approx 4 meters tall. But we also have some schools that have classes for adults in casting and making jewelry as a hobby. With some of the students deciding to go into business for themselves with dishonest intentions. Yes agree but I think problem is with dishonest sellers not with craftsmen. For example with my products, I do not think you can blame me for making reproductions and selling them as such. But problem is with resellers buying them and after ageing selling them as originals.
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“In old times that was done with soft puanson, wide variety of them. Even cardboard was used as male die. In old times that was done for few reasons. First to cut moldmaking expenses, second to make sure that even lovwer qualiefied personal can not brake dies, and speed is the same, results are the same, why to go hard and expensive way. Below is pic how ring from Gaspare die will look”“puanson”? I’m don’t know that term. Some kind of backing with a metal plate behind it? I vaguely remember seeing something about alternate materials like plastic (Bakelite?) being used during wartime. For the press forming of aircraft sheet metal(?). But to get fine external details like lettering to replicate accurately (like that seen on Gaspare’s ring) I’m not familiar with absent a female die. In the U.S. from that era for coins with a lot of surface detail they used a “Knuckle-Joint” coining press. Which had other applications like the screw press, but was not as flexible as the screw press with either hot or cold metal forming applications. "Yes agree but I think problem is with dishonest sellers not with craftsmen. For example with my products, I do not think you can blame me for making reproductions and selling them as such. But problem is with resellers buying them and after ageing selling them as originals." I can’t argue with that. It’s not craftsman who are asked to make something who at fault. And it’s not just resellers who are the problem. While it grieves me to say it. Sometimes it’s profit motivated dealers and collectors who are placing the orders, and providing the expertise that the craftsman lack. Because the average craftsman simply is not going to have the specialized knowledge that is needed and it has to come from somewhere. For that matter, the same is true for many of the altered items that we see in circulation made to deceive. With the craftsman simply asked to perform the work. PS: Nice ring! Thanks for posting it. Best Regards, FP
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Hapur - Boy, am I JEALOUS!! GREAT presentation which will open many eyes!! I got an e-mail from Don Boyle today, and he said that the only person with access to Gahr paperwork had confirmed to him that they were NOT cast!! You can't really blame Craig for clinging to the belief that were cast, as MANY people believed this, including myself.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"): “puanson”? I’m don’t know that term. My apologies, I tought it was english word. Puanson is male die. In other words there were no male die. With dumb power (my baby punches with 65 ton force) you can "squeeze" cardbord or any other material to the state were it becomes harder than metal needed to form. Perfect example of this technology is that Westwall ring I posted earlier. Look on details inside, they will tell you a lot. As said my teacher - Learn to understand what you see.
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quote: Originally posted by jim m:
Hapur:
Would you please post a picture of the mold(s) you are using to do this?
Jim
Ok will do it tomorrow or day after.
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quote: Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
Where the other one comes into play is with “one off jewelry works”. With them, the process to try and create rings good enough to fool the collecting public is an evolutionary one. With constant improvements until they get to the “superfake” stage. Which is where we seem to be now, judging from some of the comments that I have seen of late. And the rubber molds/wax rings give them the flexibility they need to make those improvements. FP
I wouldn't agree on that. To trained eye there always will be clear if item has been casted or die struck. And that is the answer to most of qestions about German ring authenticy. There are not many "dynosaurs" left, actually I know only one besides me.
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