UBB.threads

James (DAMAST), Thanks for your input!!! It�s still the specialist's who are the best �go to� guys when it gets down to the details. And I see what you are saying, but did not put two and two together. With what I am assuming is the more traditional �chevron� pattern of Turkish Damascus?

Also, while I�m not familiar with a �Deckel�, I am at least a little bit familiar with industrial grade pantographs. And to borrow a phrase that you used earlier: �no mystery there�.

(PS to Jim: If it�s still needed, I think I can go back and pull up a couple of images to cover the application of the lettering.) With my Best Regards, FP

Ok:
We've heard from the damascus technical experts here. We've discussed this blade from flaws like delamination,cold shunts etc. We've discussed how the blade was forged* particulary in relation to the raised lettering and how this was possibly forged.
No one however has stated whether they believe the blade is 3rd Reich period or a post war fake.
Would anyone care to step up to the plate here so to speak and render an opinion?
*By forged here I am referring to the manufacturing process. I am NOT in any way implieng the blade is necessarily a forgery.
Jim

Jim,
I never liked this thing. Real or not. This sword would not IMO grace the walls of Carin Hall.
Even though I don't like the look I actually feel it is modern made and aged to deceive fake.
The numerous delaminations that FP has pointed out along with the "cold shut" and other exibits of inferior workmanship had me wondering. Then the grip! I mean that really said to me that the workmanship was way off. You don't give something like that to a blade lover like the Reichsmarshall!
The threaded stub tang bothered me also...never seen something like that. Didn't like it when I saw it either.
Then I didn't know why all the mystery everyone had on the lettering of the dedication. And when FP pointed out the "circular" marks in the cavity of the dedication..well that sealed it for me.
Back in the 70's I seen what a regular pantograph machine would do. Like turn your regular Mauser M-96 Broomhandle into a rare Persian Contract. Mill out that Persian Crest perfectly. A little careful blue and a little wear. Wa-La it's ready to be sold to the deep pocket newbie Joe Bxxxxx.
So an industrial grade Pentograph could mill that out in ..NO TIME.

I believe it's a fake. And without the Master of Disasters proof of Rock Solid Provenance...I will still consider this item made post 1945.
-JMO-

-serge-

Description of the above sword from the website:

"Recently I was lucky enough to find the Hermann Goering Industrial Sword. The blades only adornment a simple yet elegant presentation overlay, of what each letter is made from hand forged Damascus steel all set within a hollow ground center line. Thus this form of hollow ground Damascus being one of the hardest types of Damascus steel to make, let alone the skill to make such has been all but lost over the years. To add to the shear length and width of this massive blade, of what leans conclusive evidence of being forged by a "TRUE MASTER" of this art form. The sword measures 55 inches in length and weighs almost 15 pounds.
This is the powerful and undisputed provenance trail. The German gentleman that I purchased this sword from stated that his father had leased an out building from the Krupp's Manufacturing firm in Essen Germany in 1946 to set up a business. The sword was found in the rubble during clean up, taken back home, and stored away at the family's house ever since. I have also received and E letter from the Krupp's firm explaining that they did indeed have such a sword commissioned as well presented to " ReichMarshall Goering " The company represenative also noted that thye had a smaller prototype made up as a scale model. As of now no one knows where that prototye resides. Wish me luck !!!"

Maybe Herman didn't like it and left it behind in the out building...

Anyway, an observation from someone who knows very little about damascus, but would not the "TRUE MASTER" have signed the sword as proof and proudness of his work for the recipient?

And from TJ's Volume 1, isn't this THE Goering Industrial Sword, signed by Paul Mueller, or was there more than one?

Regards

Russ

I've only heard of one 1938 Industrial Sword. The last mention I know of is on the back cover of TJ's Vol. II. At that time Harry Jones of Torrance, CA owned it. I'm wondering where it is today.

I can only concur with Serge's comments and analysis, too many unanswered questions for me.

We also have to be very careful about the person that wrote those comments on the Goring sword on the "other forum". This person is known in the collecting community to be the master of deception.

All of his daggers, or let's say 99% of them, are Vet acquired, untouched and of course 100% original.

If someone bought that sword for 1 million dollars they for sure would need there head examined!! Looking in Tom Johnsons Vol 1 at some of the daggers/swords Goring had...I would think he would have chopped the head off the person who gave him that junk!

Sepp

GDC 0292 Gold

The only provenance that has been offered to date is the current owner�s testimonial.

Which very briefly is: �The German .. that I purchased this sword from stated .. his father had leased .. out building from .. Krupp's .. in 1946 .. The sword was found in the rubble .. taken .. stored. .. I have (an) E letter from .. Krupp's .. they did .. have such a sword commissioned as well presented to "ReichMarshall Goering" With the company representative also noting that a smaller prototype was made, but they don�t know what happened to it.

So according to the letter. The last time that personnel from Krupp saw the sword that they had commissioned, it was in G�ring�s possession. And instead of being at Carinhall, or his official state residence on Leipziger Platz in Berlin. Somehow the Reichsmarschall�s sword ended up in storage in a Krupp out building in Essen. And while we don�t have a date. We do know that Essen, and more specifically Krupp, was being bombed less than a month after G�ring was promoted to Reichsmarschall (with the bombing situation only to become much worse).

And while much of the focus is or was on the blade. Very troubling is the unquestionably sloppy workmanship that went into finishing the handle, with an otherwise rather plain hilt. With everything taken together - I am erring on the side of caution ie: postwar. Also thinking the money would be better spent elsewhere. FP

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
The only provenance that has been offered to date is the current owner�s testimonial.


The promoter of the Goring sword, Mr. Keys also writes in his thread and I quote, " I feel as God has blessed me with being one of the first to see this wonderful art work. "

Wouldn't be considered as solid evidence ?

quote:

The promoter of the Goring sword also writes in his thread and I quote, " I feel as God has blessed me with being one of the first to see this wonderful art work. "
Wouldn't be considered as solid evidance ?

I tell you, what a flake this guy is.

Pat,
The "Dagger Guru" who has more damascus blades than all collections in the world combined was just trying to act as a "agent" for a 10% commish on this monster from the owner. (Rumour I heard) With blind disregard to all the red flags that have been pointed out here he continued to "Pump the Flock" unabashed as a greasy town street hawker.
When some of us started to ask to see this "Rare Undisputable Provenance" he got "testy" and started calling us "Buffoons" and "single cells". Some people think that it's OK for them to play the game: "Heads I win, Tails you lose".

Now it seems that it's more clear. "BeerHall" bought the sword from the owner direct and the Dagger Guru lost out on his 100K commish he was counting on. Got ticked off and called us a few names as he fled the stage.
There was no reason to pump this sword anymore
Maybe that is NOT what happened..but when you set yourself up as a "Veteran Expert" in this hobby and act in this fashion that he has demonstrated than IMO you deserve ALL that is coming to you.
As we had recently seen in other areas of this great hobby. Sometimes the lure of the "quick cash" blinds some and then they leave
the scene with a "Scorched Earth Policy" to all those around them.
Only then...you know what they really thought of you.

-serge-

Just for the record, I did at the start of this thread, use the word B*******! (Since removed!)
Anyway....Can we possibly see any images of the many other sword variations "fat boy" received? Many thanks..

Jim, thanks for the link to the story on the other forum.I think I have seen that forum before but thought I could not read postings... well anyway what a mess it is. And I know why nobody here wanted to tell the story. The bad part is and this is where my opinions have changed from a few years ago. If this thing is the real deal its an uphill battle after that mess.
This type of thing is so far from my area of collecting I may be out in left field but.. when these speciality things were made and the quality was not up to par were they rejected and re-made? And when they were made and paid for by the companys or who ever has these thing ordered from the smiths was it a one way purchase? as is no returns?? maybe this was a reject?
I'm not trying to make this a period item I'm just trying to understand that if the speciality item was made could something of this nature be rejected by the buyers? Damast maybe thats more your area?? I'm just wondering.
if my question is cloudy tell me and I'll type a longer one
Bret Van Sant

Bret, If I get your �drift� correctly. Speaking generally, as we know, there is a well established precedent in the German arms industry for reworking substandard items. As for rejects. Sometimes a substandard item was passed on to another user that was less stringent. With the practice a well documented one, especially if there were other end users in need of the item. But it�s also true that items that could not be salvaged were scrapped.

However, for a one of a kind or specially manufactured item, it�s much harder to say. But I think logic would dictate that if an item could be fixed it is much more preferable than having to start all over again. With one other thing I think to be taken into consideration. Which is, was the item paid for in advance? Or was it paid for on delivery and acceptance? Or was there a (25% or whatever) advance deposit made - balance on delivery? Without some kind of period documentation, or evidence of standard business practices. I would imagine that all we can do now is guess(?).

On topic for the sword, but slightly off topic for the above. When I was looking at the handle, I had a really tough time trying to figure out which side was which. I think that I have it figured out. But would certainly welcome some correction if I got it wrong. Best Regards, FP

What I think is the other side (I tried to keep them larger for comparison purposes, but ended up having to compress them a little). FP

Fred, yip thats about it! I own late war re-worked and over stamed dated k89 bayos so I know it was done on combat related things. I just was wondering if someone paid for this and later decided it was not really up to par to give as a gift then it was just swept under the rug to say. I think that the post on the other forum MFC or MCF what ever ya call it! stated that this was found in an out building. The post made it have the feel of a run down outhouse type of thing but I wonder if it was more for storing things. Ah but the story is a story. as always thanks saying what i was trying to Fred
Bret

For what it�s worth, here is what I consider an authentic Goring sword that was advertised back in 1970 in a then period hobby periodical, �Sword & Dagger�

The sword�s information and description was provided to the editor by Ed Voelker of New York as �a very large and heavy sword measuring 48 inches in length with a Damascus 37 inch blade that is 7 � inches wide.

As provenance and documentation to this sword there was a period photo and discussion in 1937 by the Uhlstein news agency in Berlin.

Quite a difference from the subject in discussion. My personal thoughts about the sword in discussion is that it is so primitive and crude that it would have never been considered as a gift to Goring. However, IF from the period, if could merely be a shop or trade school project.

This is not to say that conceivably there were many different swords manufactured and intended to be given to Goring however and again, I would sincerely feel that nothing this crude would ever be considered.

�stories are interesting and cost nothing�

(sincerely interested parties can contact me and I will provide a more clear copy of this attached article)

Regards,

John

John,

That particular sword is also shown on page 207 of Jack Angolia's "Swords of Germany1900/1945" book. The photo was attributed to "Hackney" but I don't know who that is I am afraid. This book was copyright in 1988 so it obviously changed hands since your 1970 article.

George

As they say: �Beauty is in the eye of the beholder�. With my personal favorite as the �King of Crude� the (in)famous �Krupp� daggers. Which fooled more than one guy who you would have thought should have known better. With some paying, not fortunes, but still some reasonably serious money for fantasy junk.

With John Pepera�s comments reminding me of G�ring�s special uniforms, and other items. And especially his Reichsmarshall�s baton. Nothing �bargain basement� with that gift. Best Regards to All, FP

Orpo:
The 1938 Industrial sword was owned by Harry Jones of Torrance, CA in '72 or '73. In Angolia's Sword book he lists the owner as Hackney. I'm not 100% sure but I think that's Clint Hackney of Friendswood, TX. The reason I say this is that Jack Angolia sent me a photo featuring a Goring visor cap, 1t Model Luft General's Sword & funeral sash eagle, giving Mr. Hackney credit for ownership. If he owns those high buck items, the 1938 Industrial Sword would be right at home. I used the photo in my 1989 Calendar.