UBB.threads

You have an amazing eye for details Sir.

Pat......Do you know who sold the Deitrich sword?....The last time I saw it, it was here in England. It still had it's original case, but had lost most of it's gold wash. (Has been over enthusiastically handled over the years!) If you are correct in your assumption that it has departed for Russia, I fear it won't be seen again and that is such a terrible loss to us all in the civilised world of TR collecting! So many important treasures of all sorts are now finding their way to Russia. Purchased by dodgy individuals on a whim, simply because they have managed to "aquire" huge instant wealth and who wouldn't normaly be allowed any were near these items, let alone ownership of them! No doubt he's letting all his friends wave it around along with HH salutes....Sickening!....It's probably jelousy on my part, as of all the items related to TR collecting I have most lusted after over the years, it is the Deitrich sword!

It was bought from the original owner in England by Helmut Weitze and then resold to a Russian collector immediately.
Helmut Weitze acted as a middleman in the transaction.
It is sad but you're right, it will probably never come back to the Western world.
You were lucky to be able to see it.
Sadly, I was expecting to actual get my hands on it next year as I was supposed to go to England and meet the owner.<
Well, I will still go to England and see some of my friends and enjoy a few beers at the local Pub.
To be quite frank, I don't remember if it was $ 1 million USD or 1 million British pounds.
In either way, well worth the money as it is unique and magnificent.

Howard, we are ALL jealous.

Here's a photo of the the Deitrich Sword I took back in '89 for my 1990 calendar. I really don't think it was ever gold washed.

I should have added that the hilt and scabbard fittings are silver. They pick up the gold tone from the red background. I don't remember any of the names on the blade as being gold either.

I handled the Dietrich sword many years ago after it was cleaned of patina and it is silver not gilt.

Oh, I'm so Pd off about this!....Seeing that picture just reminds me how I have allways longed for it!....But it definately did display traces of gilt. Dont forget that his cuff title and eagle etc was gold wire (Much to the irritation of Himmler) I'm off now for a lie down and cry into my pillow!!!

So what's the general concensus on the Goring piece? Is this piece the legitimate piece?

Alot of items are indeed going East. Recently i've sold some Heer sabers, your run-of-the-mill doveheads/lionheads, some in excellent condition, some in poor condition, to collectors residing in the former Soviet Republics. The buyers have not taken issue with paying the exorb. shipping/handling and foreign paypal fees. Typically it runs roughly $50-60 for shipping, and paypal exchange fees. A price I would not be willing to pay when buying a common item.

Since the iron curtain was raised, a renewed interest in all things NS Germany bloomed over there. Like was stated above, there's alot of new money over there and these collectors are eager to spend whatever it takes.

Back on topic, i'll be curious to hear what the agreed concensus on this piece is.

I handled (carefully)the Dietrich sword.
It was silver.No gilting or wash.
Ask TJ.
Seiler (yank in UK)

OK OK OK....It was about 25years ago, I was just a teenager and new to TR collecting!!! But I could have sworn it had traces of gold showing between the stylised feather design on the grip?...Oh well, then I will defer to all of you on your superior knowlege regarding this item! ....Maybe it was tarnish?

You will never know where it will go again, and it is wrong to say it will never go back to the western world. Many Russian millionair's are struggling like anyone else around the globe. And big changes can come sooner as someone would think. Say never never or niemals nie.

quote:

So what's the general consensus on the Goring piece? Is this piece the legitimate piece?

Tom, After looking at some of the considerable "hype" over the internet which this sword has generated, I don�t know that anyone is going to volunteer too much input at the moment.

For myself - the more I look at it in detail. The more I seem to be ending up with more questions than I had before I started looking.

While looking more closely at another one of the blade�s delaminations, I saw something else that seems out of place. It shows up better in some of the other (multiple) images: but there is a long, very thin, straight line running parallel with the length of the blade. Not something I remember seeing with other period Damascus blades, and I don�t know what caused this. Perhaps James, or someone else who is more specialized with Damascus blades can enlighten me as to reason why this seems to be present? Best Regards, FP

Fred-
Thank you for the opinion and info. A very interesting thread and i'll be curious to see where this one finally lands.

t

Fred - I would like to offer my "explanation" for the line which you have pointed out. As we all know, Damascus is done by layering metal over and over. When it was then shaped, it was done in multiple levels, hence the line and hence the ridge. I personally do not see any issue with that. If it were done at one angle, the line would not be there and the pattern would match up precisely. Just my 50 cents.

P.S.: It's a very interesting sword and I have looked at it over and over .. and fascinates me.

JAN

Jan, I find it interesting to look at as well trying to get a better feel for it. I understand what you are saying, and I�ve only looked at some (not all) of the of the images closely. I also think that there are only a few that show very limited portions of the back side, so they are not really that useful IMO for comparison.

But it�s not just folding, there is a lateral displacement as well. And it seems to run from the stub end at the hilt to just short of the blade tip (the attached image showing the displacement close to the tip). Using the line as a boundary, with a blade that is close to four feet long - that�s a long way to maintain that much uniformity without some crossover or merging. And so far, I have not seen it repeated like that elsewhere on the blade.

Also, why are some of welds coming apart like that. Best Regards, Fred

Very interesting discussion. Fred, here are 6 pics of the reverse blade.

Regards

Russ

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

Russ, I don't have the time to look at them more closely at the moment, but I think that I can see a boundary line in at least one of them. And another place where the blade might be delaminating?

Thank You !!!

With Best Regards, Fred

I�ve only had time to look more closely at one image. Which besides some random pock marks, shows upon closer examination what looks more like a cold shut (bad weld) instead of an actual delamination of the layers. Also, what in the image seems to be multiple knife edge boundary lines with lateral displacement. FP

After finding some more possible evidence of bad welds (etc.) - I decided to take a little better look at what seems to be the almost perfectly preserved hilt and grip.

By all accounts Reichsmarshall G�ring was fond of blades, so I can understand the purpose of a special sword being commissioned to gain favor with him. I can also understand a blade smith having a bad day or two at the forge. But the grip is basic metal working. Another �bad day� at the sword works? FP

After looking at the first few pictures there is nothing about this sword that I like at all.It does not look like genuine Damascus to me and I find the quality severly lacking..do you guys actually like it?????I wouldn't touch it if offerred to me for $2500.00.....cheers Ryan and it is ugly to boot!!!!

Ryan,
I don't know damascus however I have been in Toledo, Spain and have seen better grip scalloping than the image that FP just showed on junk Toledo swords.
On another site there was supposed to be a big "Story of the Decade" all about this sword with "Rock Solid Provenance". It never came out and the promoter has not been heard from since.
Now with what FP shows us and the fact that it ended up with "BeerHallGreg" of Solingen- Berlin fame...I wouldn't spend 25K on this either. Others may think different and that's OK. Perhaps they would also want to buy a long forgotten Jar of SS Totenkopf Rings from Wewelsburg castle.

The one thing I learned in this hobby is on something like this you better really watch itbecause it can really ruin your taste about collecting.
Thanks for the indepth look on this FP. Your the first that looked at the grip. Everyone else was looking only at the blade.

-serge-

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
Ryan,
On another site there was supposed to be a big "Story of the Decade" all about this sword with "Rock Solid Provenance". It never came out and the promoter has not been heard from since.

You're so right Serge, Bruce Petrin and his gang of monkey followers "on the other web site" have been extremelly quiet about the so-called "Story of the Decade".

Way to go Mister Keys, now everyone is convinced that you are trully a "space cadet".


Frogprince, I'm very much impressed by your analysis and knowledge about the art of damascus.

Good work !

What a 'flame out', that was supposed to be a BIG story. Looks like a bad prop in a bad movie. No wonder Goring sent it back, or maybe never took it and let it stay at the factory.

Mark

Not everything,particularly a one off piece such as this one, is going to conform to current day collectors expectations;especially presentation items. One only has to go back and look at the Amman dagger,which I got to examine first hand,to understand this.
I have watched damascus being forged into blades with my own eyes and discussed this subject with various makers. They will all tell you it is an imprecise art more than a science. Morover;the larger the piece is the more difficult the forging becomes. I doubt if there's anyone today who could forge that blade with raised damascus lettering.
Is this a legit example that was made for Goering? I for one won't judge it until it has been examined by someone more knowledgeable than me. However if you want to see a really butt ugly example of a Goering presentation sword I'll direct you to T Johnsons "World War II German War Booty" P.21 where the Mussolini presentation sword is pictured.
Jim

Most of my �hands on� experience is with Imperial era Damascus.

One of the things I was trying to get some input on from TR era Damascus collectors was as regards how the Damascus itself was done on this blade, as compared to other known examples of period work. Which is part of the reason I presented what I was seeing the way that I did.

Here is another view of a different portion of the grip.

PS: From the images, the lettering is not raised in the sense of it being in relief. It is cut into the metal with a rotary engraver and/or some other combination of tools. With what clearly seems to be rotary engraving with some portions.

Best Regards to All, FP

Fred:
I see no evidence of rotary cutting and besides, How long would it have taken to do this?
Perhaps you can see something in the pictures I can't make out. The other option I considered but ruled out was acid etching as this would have undercut the lettering as well.
Again: I think a hands on examination of this sword will be required to make a definitive judgement.
I am very leery of the story of how the sword supposedly surfaced and even more leery of the person who purportedy has it in his possession. I for one am going to take a sit back and wait and see position here.
Jim

Jim, I've got some things to do until late this afternoon. But in the interim, here is a piece of an earlier image that shows some of what I am talking about. Notice the combination of circular swirl marks inside the lettering channel. Best Regards, FP

For what it is worth, I just checked the website and it seems to be functioning fine. I also want to add a "ditto" to all that has been said to this point. Stupid Money! RG88

Fred:
There's little question in my mind that the inscription was at least "cleaned up" manually with tools. I agree you can see evidence of this in the picture.
BTW: The upper flaw(marked in red) appears to be a delamination while lower flaw in the picture appears to be a cold shunt.
Jim

Jim, My recollection from an earlier look was rotary engraving, with possibly some cleanup with a chisel or chisels (etc). Yes, that�s a cold shut, but what was really of interest to me wasn�t just that it was one of the (multiple) bad welds. It was a bad weld with what looks like the layer or layers that were pulling away from the main body of the blade (in effect delaminating). Got to go! Best Regards, FP

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pat:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serge (aka Wagner):
Ryan,
On another site there was supposed to be a big "Story of the Decade" all about this sword with "Rock Solid Provenance". It never came out and the promoter has not been heard from since.

You're so right Serge, Bruce Petrin and his gang of monkey followers "on the other web site" have been extremelly quiet about the so-called "Story of the Decade". .
QUOTE]

Guess I'm a out of the loop guy whats that story??? no I dont want to join yet another forum to read the story. If someone can just give me the readers digest or cliff note story?? or can i read it somewhere??
Bret Van Sant

Many of the answers on how the blade is made will be found in the Book (Damascus steel) By Manfred Sachse Printed in English. This pattern is called Turkish.. This is a Very must have book for blade collector. I have been to his forge a few times and also have been to the forge of the man he sold his business to. There are damascus smiths today who can make Turkish Damascus sword blades. Regards: James This post should go before COG- HAMMER

quote:

Jim, My recollection from an earlier look was rotary engraving, with possibly some cleanup with a chisel or chisels (etc).

This was also mentioned in my earlier post

During one of my frequent lapses in judgement, I went on that "Other forum". I read all about "the find of the century", likening it to the 1938 Goring Industrial Sword. I asked a simple question, has anyone seen the 1938
Industrial Sword since Tom Johnson photographed it for his Vol. II? Maybe somebody here will know the answer.

Yes this would be nice to see!...In fact if anyone has some nice modern photos of any of his "glory" swords can we see please?...Many thanks.