UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum SA-Reserve II.

. That's a nice picture. I do not recognize the cap emblems.

--dj--Joe

Here you go. It looks slightly different but I think it's the same type. I think that the outer line/border of the EK has blurred out in the period image......

Ahh, RKB. I never would have gotten that.

Thanks Don.

--dj--Joe

quote:

Originally posted by derjager:
Where did I just see an S mark with dashes around it on one of these?
--dj--Joe

Here you go Joe......

Other side

mark

Was hoping it would find a home.

The nagging critter in the back of my mind tells me I have seen the AE mark before somewhere, someplace, but where?

--dj--Joe

Any thoughts as to who the maker 'S' surounded with dashes was?

--dj--Joe

Unable to post a picture of my SAR now, but it has the standard Ges. Gesch on the wings, but the maker mark is the letter C superimposed over a T or F (or a T or F over a C). Haven't the slightest idea of who it is, and always thought the design was a searchlight beam.

Dan

Dan, what comes to my mind is Franke & Co. It would be F,C,L in a circle. L = L�denscheid.

--dj--Joe

Joe - Thank you for your reply.

It probably is Franke & Co. In taking a close up look with a loupe, it appears to be a definate "T" (with a small cross mark halfway up - so most likely really an "F"), with a smaller "C" superimposed on it. No circle or "L".

As far as I am concerned, Franke & Co. - F&C is it.

Thank you again, Dan

Here is a drawing of the FCL mark attributed to Franke & Co.

Joe -Thanks for the picture - it's worth a thousand words!

Looking at the pin, the "F" leans slightly to the left, and the drooping lip on the top right end of the bar is barely visible. Center bar is in the same place but is equal on both sides. The "C" is the same right down to the small lip on top. But there is no "L" or circle.

I'm comfortable with Franke & Co. since the designs are really very close. It is probably just a trade mark variation, possibly because of the small available size area on the bottom of the pin.

Thanks again, Dan

Back around, hoping for more makers marks.

--dj--Joe

Might as well drag this back into the light of the day. 2024 smile

Any new ones?

--dj--Joe

Do you know whether the SAR II were covered by the RZM Joe? All the pins I've ever seen have individual makers marks. However, whilst flitting around the net the other day I came across one with an early transitional RZM mark.... RZM 96.

Questions;

1: The RZM mark looks as though it may have a lazy M so is it a fake?'
2: If not a fake, when did the SAR II disappear? Did they go around the time the RZM was introduced explaining why we do not see the pins marked with it?

Don

can't answer your questions but.. I had a couple of these over the years. One was with a RZM.. It sure enough looked authentic.. Like this one,,good twist on pin,,details good. Can't really see the enamel but mine was real enamel..

I'll have to do some reading up on the subject of your question Don.
As to the lazy M in RZM I have noted some sloppy letters in the GES. GESCH. markings of some badges. Almost free hand lettering.

--dj--Joe

Having a time nailing down a date for the decree of a visible RZM copyright protection symbol/code, on Reichszeugmeisterei controlled items.
1934 for the codes? 1929 for the establishment of the Reichszeugmeisterei body? Will keep reading but it would be good if someone more knowledgeable on the subject would comment.

1934, with Röhm's death. The influence of the SA began it's decline?

If I recall correctly I have seen a document with dual service images of the SA reserve II and the Kyffhäuserbund or the NSRKB. (?). Not sure where I saw the document. (If I could locate it there might be a visible date).
--dj--Joe

Neither here nor there, I have read that the SA Reserve II was for SA members over 45 years of age.

The more I read the more confusing it becomes with date timelines and the absorption of other units.

--dj--Joe

That's very interesting Gaspare. I don't suppose by any chance you can remember whether it was a transitional (like the one above) or whether it had the M1 designation?

Thanks Joe, sorry I was out all day yesterday so unable to partake in the discussion....

I've had a good hunt around the net & with dealer sites to see whether that are any documents. I'm starting to suspect that they were a short lived group.... I found an invitation to join the SAR II dated 1934 (sign up was 10th Feb through 12th March)...

There are a few membership cards shown on various sites. Interestingly, I could not find one dated past July 1934.... This site has a short description on the group towards that bottom of the page & also shows two documents (dated June & July) https://moonwheel.eu/dues%203/sub%20nsdap%207/sa.html

Going back to my original question. I believe that the SA were covered by the RZM, so it is possible that the SAR could have been as well, although generally vet groups were not. It could also be that as the piece above is transitional, the manufacturer made a mistake & used an RZM number in error, making it an anomaly...

Good find on the documents Don. I never did locate the one I recall. Must have sold.
I did read that the badge was approved in March 1934, but cannot confirm that.

--dj--Joe

Whilst meandering around the net I came across another RZM marked piece, RZM 39. Quite roughly marked on the reverse, but otherwise looks OK.

Don,
looks OK to me. Good sighting.

--dj--Joe

Badge | The badge for the members of the SAR II, designed by Colonel (ret.) Reinhard as the colonel commandant of the SA Reserve II and federal leader of the Reichskriegerbund, in the design of a Landsturmtschako from the time of the Freedom Wars with a swastika and two wings, was approved by the Supreme SA leadership on 25 March 1934. Reinhard owned all rights to this badge, it was protected by law and could not be obtained commercially

Delivery problems on the part of the manufacturers meant that the badges were not delivered until 24 June 1934. As the majority of SAR II men had further requirements in addition to the pins supplied free of charge, all sales outlets authorised by the Reichszeugmeisterei, which was responsible for production and distribution, were approved for sale in agreement with the Supreme SA leadership. The procurement office of the Reichskriegerbund took over the production and distribution until the end of October 1934. These badges bear the inscription "GES. GESCH." for "legally protected" and the mark of the manufacturer licensed by the Procurement Office of the Reich Warriors' Union. In the bulletin of the Reichszeugmeisterei (RZM) No. 23 of 3 November 1934, the RZM announced that the badge could now only be obtained from the RZM and that it must bear the protection mark and the RZM approval number on the reverse. Procurement via the Reichskriegerbund was no longer possible. The membership badge was only available in silver colour. Gold-coloured pieces are forgeries of the original badge.

The quality of the badge repeatedly caused major problems for the wearers and after numerous complaints, the Reichskriegerbund pointed out in the "Parole Book" that the badge was a relatively delicate object that had to be treated accordingly. If the metal plate on the back of the badge had become detached due to faulty soldering, it was exchanged free of charge. On 1 December 1935, the Oberstlandesführer published the measures for the dissolution of the SAL (formerly SAR II) on 31 December 1935. The badge with the winged tchako and swastika was no longer allowed to be worn. Permission to continue wearing it as a commemorative badge was refused by the Supreme SA leadership.

1. Steinhauer & Lück, Lüdenscheid
2. Franke & Co., Lüdenscheid
3. Ferdinand Hoffstädter, Bonn
4. Hermann Bauer, Schwäbisch Gmünd

unknown marker

unknown marker

Two tinnies with SA-Res II sign

Peter, very informative. Thank you. I understand the timeline now. You have answered many questions.
Two of the unknown makers are new to me. ( With a vivid imagination one looks like a Chimera standing on an E ).
Do I see correctly that the second tinnie/day badge has a 1936 date?

--dj--Joe

Hi Peter,

Welcome back!

This is great information, thank you so much. So if I understand you correctly RZM marked pieces were available from November 1934?

Don

Good Morning. Yes, RZM started in November 1934. And, the second tinnie has a date 1935.
Its nice to be here again!

Thank you for your quick reply Peter. I learn so when you are here

Peter, thank you.
--dj--Joe

Bringing this topic back to the top. Anyone have anything to add?

--dj--Joe

Joe,, at this years MAX I saw SO much U.S. stuff.. Still plenty of nazi but gone are the days you would see 3 dealers with just nazi stic pins! They like everything else getting hard to find...........

The E under the Griffin is Erhard and son A.G. Schwabisch Gmund. I will take a look at the others when I can get some time. Best!

The last row, second to the last. Do you have a better picture can't see all of it. It could be Wilhelm Binder. Best!

I do believe you are correct on both. Erhard and son A.G. Schwabisch Gmund and Wilhelm Binder GmbH - Schwäbisch Gmünd. Excelent detective work.

--dj--Joe