UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Hunting, Forestry, and Shooting Forum 1930's German Nazi Hunting Knife, D (Swaz.) B F

I just received this rare hunting knife and need help to identify this well-made knife. The Bowie style blade is 8", knife is 13'" with a 15" leather sheath. I only have seen 1 other example on another site. The knife also came with a German hunting pin and a nice Johnson tweed case. The small knife is missing from the sheath and the example from the other site probably has the wrong small knife shown. I will post the other knife and photo next. This knife is from the seller's 40-year collection.

HELP.

C. Wetzel-20609

Here is the description and link:

Hunting and Shooting
German Nazi-era Hunting Knife (Item HUNT 3-3)

DESCRIPTION: This is one of the most sought-after hunting pieces of the Third Reich. We see the fancy Hirschfänger (hunting daggers) and they are certainly beautiful and dramatic, but what did the hunter actually carry in his everyday sojourn in the forest? Well, here it is. The all-around hunter's friend. The often-missing element in not only the advanced hunting collection, but it is often not accounted for in the larger Third Reich edged-weapons collections, as well. This is a very fine example of this important knife. It is factory produced and of the Bowie style. The logo of the company is on the blade and stamped into the leather, as well. The logo is a hunting hound stepping through a y-shaped configuration that includes a traditional hunting horn. In the arms of this 'y' are the letters "D-B" with a swastika in the middle of the characters. On the blade you can barely make this out because of intensive wear. On the other side it says Handgeschmiede (hand forced). On the scabbard you can still see the dog motif, but the letters and swastika are all but obliterated because of wear. The entire knife and sheath are in excellent used-but-not-abused shape. It's understandable that the logos might be worn out because this was not by any means a dress dagger, but a working tool for the Jäger. The piece is rare from a rare maker but is definitely a Third Reich item of historical importance. The small skinning knife is traditionally made with part of the leg bone of the elk for the handle. The blade is by G. Felix of Solingen and so marked. This was also usual to use other maker's parts in assembly. The length of the blade is 8 inches. The overall length is 13 inches including the grip. The scabbard is 15 inches long overall. The buckle device is intact but used. The piece is definitely in very presentable shape. The blade looks as it is supposed to look-well used in the Deutscherwald (German forests). Great find.
PRICE: SOLD

https://www.germaniainternational.com/hunting3.html

Here are 2 more images of my knife and sheath. Note blade marked HANDGESCHMIEDET.

I sent an email to Henning Ritter (HUBERTUS) telling him about my 1930's German knife and noted that the "Lippert" style Waidblatt and the "Lippert" style Waidmesser advertisements have HANDGESCHMIEDET. The "Lippert" style Waidblatt (also known as a Wolfsangle Waidblatt) also has HANDGESCHMIEDET on the blade. Here is his reply with a most interesting insight from a Solingen knife manufacture who is well known to the GDC community:

"Hello Calvin,

Thank you for drawing my attention on the detailing of a „HANDGESCHMIEDET“ mark on the blade.

I already noticed the vintage LIPPERT advertisement with such ‚quality information‘.

Hand-forging is a proof, that this Waidblatt pattern blade was crafted in small series only. Otherwise the ‚drop forge‘ process by using the blade’s negative form would be more economic.


In any case a die with the term ‚HANDGESCHMIEDET‘ was necessary for the marking.

Does your BOWIE hunting knife show up with a Gustv Felix cutler mark?

Regards

Henning"

Here is my reply: "No, it is not a G. FELIX, only "Hound und Horn D (Swaz.) B F" on 1 side with HANDGESCHMIEDET (upside down) on the other side of blade. The small G. FELIX knife is NOT original to the Waidbesteck (in my opinion). So, what you tell me is very interesting HANDGESCHMIEDET (Hand-Forged) crafted in small series, Drop-Forged, an economic production method. Das ist gut".

PS the pin I got is a Bavarian Hunting pin (B J V) and is probably post WW2 in my opinion because there is no Swaz.

C. Wetzel-20609

Update: the black guard on my knife is probably a BAKELITE (early plastic) cover over steel. Note that the Nazi-era Germans were using these materials for knife handles. This makes me wonder if the matching small knife will also have this feature.

Calvin

I took 5 photos today of the knife.

The blade is 4 MM thick and has a false edge of just over 5 inches. This blade is in very good condition with no signs of sharpening (in my opinion). The black Bakelite / plastic covering on the steel guard is a very thin layer.

The other example sold from the web site is described as used with intensive wear to the sheath and they do not even know there is an "F" at the bottom part of the mark on the blade.

C. Wetzel-20609

Correction: (Swaz.) is incorrect abbreviation and should be (Swas.), swastika.

I won this knife on 12 Sep. 2024 for $227.49 and $6.10 S&H with 3 bids and on that day came down with a new strain of Covid. The major symptom is loss of appetite. It also affected my taste, smell and then breathing. I am starting to feel better this week.

Please stay safe fellow GDC members and beware.

The description from Germania International of the small knife:

"The small skinning knife is traditionally made with part of the leg bone of the elk for the handle. The blade is by G. Felix of Solingen and so marked."

This is an incorrect assumption, and I found a seller on the popular auction site that has 3 G. Felix knives as shown by Germania International and in my opinion, these are G. Felix table knives with light brownish to dark black horn handles. Another seller has a complete set of 8 of these G. Felix knives.

C. Wetzel-20609

My assumption that the black handguard on my knife is made of Bakelite or plastic maybe incorrect. I found an older Stag handle, "Urban knicker" Jagdmesser for sale on the popular auction site with a black handguard and HANDGESCHMIEDET over Fish mark on the blade. I sent the image to Henning Ritter (HUBERTUS). It is possible that my handguard is made of black buffalo horn.
Here is the reply from Henning Ritter:

"Good morning, Calvin,

Thank you for your additional / revised information.

I know Austrian „URBAN knicker“ very well, as we supplied the finished blades (grinded and mirror polished, without handle slabs) to Pichler family in Austria for a while until the company went out of business.

If I remember right the handguard was made out of solid black color buffalo horn which would make it match in regards to the color with the Bakelite guard of the larger Bowie style knife.

Anyway, I doubt that Pichler was in business during WWII. I might check our company’s 2000s business papers. Possibly some letters might show up a letter head with the date of foundation.

Kind regards

Henning"

Note there is another mark used by the PICHLER family with ROSTFREI over Fish mark that is probably a more recent mark. My Nazi-era Bowie knife was probably not made by the PICHLER family but the black handguard on my knife does look very similar to the black buffalo horn used by the PICHLER family.

C. Wetzel-20609

Researching this Hound & Horn mark on the blade has been difficult.

Late last night I found a website for "Das Jagdhorn" with photos of 5 different types of the Jagdhorn. Photo # 5 Jagdhorn shows a "Y" configuration (leather harness) on the Jagdhorn as described on the Bowie knife blade by Germania International. This Jagdhorn is known as the "Sauerlander Halbmond" (Sauerlander Halfmoon).

Germania International notes the Hound is stepping through the "Y" configuration and I found there is a "Sauerlander Brackehund" (Sauerlander scenthound), a local type of German Hound. A hunting horn is used to communicate with the Hounds during a "Jagd Bracken".

Note that Sauerland, Germany is about 40 + miles east of Solingen, Germany and about 64 miles by roads.

Das Jagdhorn, Nr. 5 - Sauerländer Halbmond
Dieses große Jagdhorn gehört von alters her zur Ausrüstung der Brackenjäger und war seit dem 17. Jahrhundert im ganzen norddeutschen Raum, von den Niederlanden bis nach Ostpreussen verbreitet.
Der Halbmond, auch halber Mond genannt, ist ein großes, halbkreisförmiges Jagdhorn. Er wird aus Kupfer gefertigt und am Mundstück, Mittelteil und Stürzenrand mit Messing beschlagen. Charakteristisch ist das Riemenzeug, auch Ledergehänge oder Hornsatz genannt, das vielfach mit dem Wappen oder den Initialen des Besitzers geschmückt ist. Der Halbmond ist heute meist in B gestimmt, früher auch in C. Er wird auf der linken Seite mit dem Schalltrichter nach hinten getragen.

http://www.mausehund.com/html/das_jagdhorn.html

C. Wetzel-20609

WOW,

I found the "D" (Deutscher) and "B" (Bracken) parts of the logo on my Bowie style knife today, now I just need the "F" word. It MUST be a club mark; my Bowie style knife was probably made on contract.

This Hound and Jagdhorn D B F logo mark is also noted in a book, "Fighting Knives", page 88 by Frederick J. Stephens, pub. 1980 and I bought the book today, I should have the book by 2 Nov.

C. Wetzel-20609

"The DBC (Deutscher Bracken-Club) is an association for breeding and hunting with hounds, which has been promoting the German Hound (Deutsche Bracke) and the Westphalian Dachsbracke since 1896."

D B F maybe "Deutscher Bracken Freundgesellschaft" (Friends Society).

If you search Deutscher Bracken Freundgesellschaft, the Facebook page of the Deutscher Bracken-Club (DB-C) comes up first.

The logo of the DB-C may have changed over the years; maybe about 1934 (Third Reich period) and again after 1945 (post WW 2).

I sent an email to the DB-C web site, and I am hoping for a reply.

"The German Hound Club (DBC e.V.) was founded in 1896 during an international dog show in Berlin and was initially based in Finnentrop, before moving to Olpe in 1911."

Finnentrop could also be the "F" word in the abbreviation of D. B. F.

The logo of the DB-C has changed over time.

Note the Bracke hund's legs, paws and tail position on a DB-C 40-year membership badge (undated), closely matches the Bracke hund's legs, paws and tail position of the D B F logo on my Bowie style knife blade.

The logo on a 1973 DB-C membership card is the same logo as the present-day logo.

C. Wetzel-20609

The book, "Fighting Knives", by Frederick J. Stephens, pub. 1980 has arrived today. Page 88, illustrations #'s 452-455 and # 452 shows HANDGESCHMEIDET etch on the blade. # 455 shows another variation of the D B F mark with hound and horn on the blade. Illustrations #'s 453 & 454 shows sheath front and back.

The book is rather small (10" X 7 1/2"), and the mark; "a dog leaping though a hoop device", shown is only about 12 mm in the book photo. HANDGESCHMEIDET is on the other side of the blade. Under magnifying glass, I can make out the letters on the logo mark, D and below an F. The top of the logo is worn away and the book states "a dog leaping though a hoop device" as they do not recognize is a hunting horn and not a "hoop device". They also note the knife is "interwar" (made between WW1 & WW2) and "more of a trail knife, probably carried by members of a hunting or dog training group". This mark is more similar to my Bowie knife than the present-day DB-C logo. The book also notes the ferrule guard is "blued steel" and this maybe an incorrect assumption based on the photo and not having the knife "in hand".

The "trail knife" shown in the book is very similar to the "Urban Knicker" with HANDGESCHMEIDET as shown above. However, the shape of the black ferrule guard is a little different. The knife in the book shows a straight cut stag to straight cut black ferrule guard, whereas the Urban Knicker stag is slightly curved to match the slightly curved black ferrule guard.

Blade size of my Bowie is 8'' the Urban Knicker with older mark (HANDGESCHMEIDET) shown above has a 7" blade. The knife in the book does not have size listed but I would guess the blade is between 5" to 6" with a slight curved hook on the end of the Stag handle similar to my Bowie knife. A sheath is also shown in the book and seems to have a round logo. Note that more recent "Urban Knicker" knives with ROSTFREI over Fish mark come in at least two sizes as shown in a You Tube video.

In my opinion the knife shown in the book is NOT the same size knife that is missing from my Bowie knife set. The sheath pocket length for my missing skinning knife is 5" and a knife of about 6 1/2" overall would be about correct in my opinion. My F. DULA sheath pocket length for the small Waidmesser is about 5 1/2" and my F. DULA Waidmesser is about 7 1/2" overall.

I have not received a reply from the DB-C, but another researcher in England and myself now thinks the D. B. F. logo on the Bowie knife is probably an abbreviation for "Deutscher Bracken Finnentrop" since the club was "initially based in Finnentrop, before moving to Olpe in 1911" and the logo was probably changed, post WW2 to Deutscher Bracken-Club (DB-C). However, "Research is subject to change", a quote by Mildred Clark.

C. Wetzel-20609

Here is a better photo of the Sauerlander Halbmond Jagdhorn und Sauerlander Brackehund mark on the blade & sheath, with initials D (Swastika) B F.

I also treated the sheath with leather conditioner as the sheath was "dry as dust".

C. Wetzel-20609

Love the knife but have you ever thought your knife could be pre 1933, the use of the Swastika symbol was in use well before the Nazi's used it, it was a good luck symbol in India for instance. I believe also the boy scouts were using the symbol in the 1920's. Looking at the style of the sheath I would think your knife more likely 1900-1930 and the use of the swastika as a good luck symbol.

Gary

Gary,

No, I did not think about the knife being pre-1933. The shape of the sheath is unusual and the reason I remembered seeing this knife on Germania International.

But just this morning I was thinking about the Swastika symbol because I just bought a 1935 named, Zimmerstutzen, Schutzengesellsch. Goldkronach, Schutzen Konig, Pewter bierkrug (beermug) with the "sun" Swastika on "eban". I also thought that the Swastika ban on eBay should not be applied to other cultures like the South-Western, Native American Indians (called "First Nations" people in Canada), who used the Swastika symbol before the Nazi's.

I will now have to rethink the age of this knife and research the German use of the Swastika symbol before 1933.

The other clue as to the age of the knife could be the metal buckle on the sheath which looks similar to the buckle used on the sheaths of Carl Eickhorn hunting knives of the 1930's and before.

Also, the opening for the belt loop is only 40 MM (1.57") for a very narrow belt.

I am thrilled to have a GDC member such as Gary post a reply. No other GDC members have replied, and it was disappointing me, but the knife & mark is not widely known.

I have reached out to Henning Ritter who probably has identified the ferrule guard material as black Water Buffalo horn (I tested the black ferrule guard with a 2 mm wide magnet, and it is NOT magnetic).

I have reached out to Thomas T. Wittmann who did not recognize the mark but gave me the email of a researcher in England (D_____ G________) who remembered he had seen the mark in the "Fighting Knives" book by Frederick J. Stephens, pub. 1980 on page 88. After I found the logo for the Deutscher Bracken-Club e. V. the researcher from England gave me a very British "Well Done". Mr. Wittmann also sent me an email: "Nice work here in identifying this group on your hunting piece." after I sent him the Deutscher Bracken-Club e. V. logo.

Thank you very much Gary.

C. Wetzel-20609

Here is a Halloween treat for you. Hence the name Urban
From my own archives not on internet. I do not have to even name drop.. OK I will say hello to Henning for me..
trademark was still being used in the 1940s Have fun with the info.
Upper Austria.

If I was to guess at a date it would be pre WWI, I would start there for any future research.

Gary

On 25 Oct. 2024 I received a reply from Herr Henning Ritter after I sent him the Deutscher Bracken-Club e. V. logo and this information: "Note that the logo on my knife is the Sauerlander Halbmoon (Half-moon) Jagdhorn. This club was established in 1896 (after the 1896 Berlin dog show) and based in Finnentrop and moved to Olpe in 1911."

Here are a couple of lines from his email reply to me:

"My great complments for your successful researches which definitively are matching with your knife’s and sheath’s logo!
I was convinced that this logo had been used by a German hunting dog association, possibly specialised on one breed."

It is truly a great honor for me to correspond with Herr Henning Ritter and have him lend his knowledge to my research of this Bowie style Jagdmesser.

C. Wetzel-20609

I found this on a B B C web site about the Swastika symbol:

"Hindu cultural organizations and religious groups have tried to explain that the Nazis did not use the swastika, but a hooked cross. The Nazi swastika has the arms turned to 45 degrees giving a slant to the symbol, whereas the swastikas of Hinduism are presented with the base arm lying flat.

A complex history.
When Adolf Hitler was looking for a symbol for his newly launched party, he used the hakenkreuz, rotating the swastika to the right and omitting the four dots – he then adopted this as the party's emblem in 1920. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's minister of propaganda, passed a law in May 1933 that prevented unauthorized commercial use of the hooked cross."

The Swastika symbol between the "D" & "B" is turned to 45 degrees on the Deutscher Bracken-Club logo found on the Bowie knife blade.

The researcher D _ _ _ _G _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _, in England believes the Bowie knife is from the 3rd Reich era and sent me this reply on 1 Nov. 2024:

"Dear Calvin,

I saw the reply on German Daggers, but I don't think that the swastika on your knife is just a type of good luck or traditional symbol, but rather a sign of the Deutscher Bracken-Club complying with the requirements of 'Gleichschaltung', or 'coordination'. All public bodies and associations had to be accepted by the regime and those that weren't deemed acceptable were dissolved and not allowed to function anymore. I wouldn't have thought that the Bracken-Club had too many problems in this area, but the governing body may well have thought it prudent at that time to include the swastika emblem in their logo to prove their loyalty, just as the German Red Cross added an eagle and swastika emblem to its badges. I know that the swastika symbol was used by others, such as the Finns [and even the British National Savings association on its badges!], but my feeling is that your knife dates from the thirties rather than any other period"

The Deutscher Bracken club magazine (Brackenzeitung) of 3 / 2022 has a club history article and on page 26 I found this text and note the word 'Gleichschaltung':

"Mit der Gleichschaltung 1933 war es für
die meisten Vereine und Organisationen
sinnvoll, sich aufzulösen oder eine der neuen Obrigkeit genehme Form anzunehmen.
Der Dachsbrackenklub gab sich den Namen
„Fachschaft westfälische Dachsbracken“."

Then I found this on Deutsches Jagd Lexicon:

"Der Deutsche Bracken-Club e. V. betreut die Rassen Deutsche Bracke und Westfälische Dachsbracke. Gegründet 1896.

1934 Umbenannt in “Fachschaft Deutsche Bracken” (1934 Renamed in "Fachschaft Deutsche Bracken").

1955 Neugründung in Olpe.

Mitteilungsblatt: Brackenzeitung

Der Deutsche Bracken-Club ist Mitglied im JGHV, VDH und angeschlossen der FCI."

So, I would guess the D B F abbreviation on my Bowie knife is for Deutsche Bracken Fachschaft?

Note that the English translation for "Fachschaft" I found was "Student Council".

C. Wetzel-20609

Prof. Dr. Lutz Heck (1892-1983) Zoologischer Garten Berlin, was a friend of Hermann Goring and was involved with the Deutscher Bracken Club before and after WW2.

Lutz Heck fled to Bavaria in 1945, and I find it interesting that this Bowie style knife came with a post WW2 Bavarian hunting pin. The past issues of Brackenzeitung (the DBC magazine) are on Pdf files for free and I found this in the issue of Brackenzeitung 4 / 2020:

"Prof. Dr. Lutz Heck, Zoologischer Garten Berlin. Heck war von 1934 bis 1945 Fachschaftsführer der „Fachschaft Deutsche Bracken“ und von 1955 bis 1965 Präsident des DBC."

So, I sent this information and the Brackenzeitung link to the reseacher in England D _ _ _ _G _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _, and he sent this reply:

"Dear Calvin,
Thanks for the additional information which seems to clarify the situation.
It would seem that in 1934 the Deutscher Brackenclub renamed itself to become the 'Fachschaft deutsche Bracken'. According to the article in the magazine there was also another club associated with the breed called the 'Dachsbrackenclub', which too renamed itself during the 'Gleichschaltung' period to become the 'Fachschaft westfälische Dachsbracken' based in Hagen. In German a 'Dachs' is a badger, and perhaps 'Dachsbracken' had been developed for the specific purpose of hunting these animals. It's also interesting that both groups took to using the word 'Fachschaft', which has overtones of a specialist craft or trade grouping in German.
Anyway, it seems that the leadership of the hunting association in Berlin decreed in 1938 that both groups should join together to become the 'Fachschaft Bracken' based in Olpe. The 'Fachschaft Bracken' was led by Prof. Dr. Lutz Heck who was director of the Berlin Zoo and a fan of the breed.
Going back to the logo on the knife blade it would now seem that the letters could well stand for 'deutsche Bracken Fachschaft', which would fit in with the renaming of the club in the thirties.
This is pretty fascinating stuff and may well finally solve the mystery of these rare sidearms.
All the best,
D_ _ _ _. "

Here is the link for Brackenzeitung and see Brackenzeitung 3 / 2022, page 26; 4 / 2020 near the end of magazine for story about Lutz Heck and 4 / 2012 for the 30-year anniversary 1936 photo of the Fachschaft Westf. Dachbracken club. https://deutscher-bracken-club.de/brackenzeitung/

I have received two replies from the President of the DB-C, Herr Johannes Lang who wrote in his email of 19 Nov. 2024:

"the "F", which would stand for "Fachschaft". In the course of the "Gleichschaltung" after the beginning of the Third Reich in 1936."

Herr Lang sent another email today; Herr Lang has been very busy as his Brackenhund just gave birth to 9 puppies and it is now hunting season.

Herr Lang has never seen a knife like mine and will publish photos of my "Fachschaft Deutsche Bracken Jagdmesser" in the club magazine sometime in the future and will let me know when.

PS I am also the caretaker of my sister's rescued mixed breed dog and love the photos of the German people and their Brackenhunde from the Brackenzeitung (Bracken magazine). See Brackenzeitung issue 2 / 2014, pages 20 & 21 for more of the DB-C history with photos.

C. Wetzel-20609

Note that the word "Fachschaft" is also found on the silver presentation plaque on the handle of the 1937 F. DULA, Schweisshunde "Fuhrerpreis" (leaders prize) posted and owned by Baz69 (Gary) on the thread: "F. Dula with a twist".