Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
fischer Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
Hi Guys,

Been awhile since I have shared something here and, as I had these two out to scan, here they are.

These were formerly referred to as the Deformed Leaf example before examples were discovered contained with Wilhelm Deumer address packets.

Another interesting feature is the hardware attachment used on these (and many others) later in the war...only to return to the directly soldered attachment method.
Most makers who used the crimped in method had failures at some point and we can see this with factory retrofits of the set-up attachment.

Here is an example of this. First, a standard Oval Crimp variant followed by a factory retrofit when the catch crimp failed. I have found they usually finished up the production run with the make shift solder attachment followed by a new reverse die for future orders.

DL OC S o.jpg (125.17 KB, 97 downloads)
DL OC S r.jpg (129.8 KB, 97 downloads)
DL OC Repair o.jpg (126.96 KB, 97 downloads)
DL OC Repair r.jpg (117.37 KB, 97 downloads)

Best Regards, fischer
1 member likes this: derjager
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,164
Likes: 115
Online Content
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,164
Likes: 115
Thanks. Another good addition to our knowledge base.

Dave

Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,918
Likes: 32
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,918
Likes: 32
Thanks Don. Is the "deformed leaf" in question the one directly above the leaf the buttstock lays on? It's almost like looking for 4 and 5 stem SHuCo's. smile
Nice example you show maintaining most of it's late silver finish.

If you don't mind, in your opinion what timeline does the vertical crimp fall versus the oval crimp?

--dj--Joe


<BR>
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
fischer Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
Hi Joe,

Yes, the nickname came from the 4R wreath leaf (see attached).

xtra Deformed Leaf Pic.jpg (30.32 KB, 74 downloads)

Best Regards, fischer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
fischer Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
Originally Posted by derjager
If you don't mind, in your opinion what timeline does the vertical crimp fall versus the oval crimp?

--dj--Joe

Difficult to say...I'm of the opinion both examples are very close in regards to a production timeline with the crimped-in hardware, glanzverzinkt or silver type finish, etc.
If I had to guess, I would say the Oval crimp preceded the Vertical crimp.

There is a third variant in the solid Deumer "Deformed Leaf" family with this one having the small Block hinge, a half moon catch plate and a "C" style catch.
I believe the Block hinge probably was the earlier of the three due to hardware and the Frosted/White type of finish.

Here is the Block hinge and the Vertical crimp variants.

Deformed Leaf block S xo.jpg (120.95 KB, 73 downloads)
Deformed Leaf block S r.jpg (153.88 KB, 73 downloads)
DL VC S 1 o.jpg (125.56 KB, 73 downloads)
DL VC S 1 r.jpg (111.63 KB, 73 downloads)

Best Regards, fischer
1 member likes this: derjager
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,918
Likes: 32
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,918
Likes: 32
Don,
Thank you for your insights and the additional images.
It would be interesting to know how they handled the reverse changes in factory.
(Could it be they set up the reverse dies, oval or vertical, depending on what hinge and catch hardware was available at the time)?
I think you are correct about the timeline on the block hinge considering the frosted finish. (I do wonder why the half moon catch plate. Saving a minute amount of material)?
Did Deumer have late war catalogs?

--dj--Joe


<BR>
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
fischer Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
Joe,

In regards to the reverse changes and how it relates to solid zinc production...I think this video is pretty close to how solid IAB's were produced.

Molten zinc would fill the die chamber (notice the obverse and reverse dies) where the casting would be formed. The zinc rapidly solidifies within seconds and is then removed.
Next the Planchet would be loaded into a "nest" to hold the Planchet securely and the trim die removes the excess zinc.

For "crimped in" hardware, I would think the hinge and catch would be attached before the zinc cooled as the badge is being molded.
Replacement of the reverse would be a matter of machining a new die chamber.



You might have to copy and paste the link.


Best Regards, fischer
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,918
Likes: 32
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,918
Likes: 32
Don,

Thank you for the link.

The hardware attachment is what I can not quite wrap my head around. Is there a recessed area on the reverse for the hinge and catch on the Deumer badges (I only have one crimped-in badge and it is a St&L piece and it does have a shallow, recessed spot for the hinge. Can't tell on the catch), or does the hinge and catch lay flat against the surface of the Deumer reverse? Blobs of zinc would be applied over the hinge and catch to form the crimp? I can see how the crimp method could be fragile and fail. Also depending upon hardware the recess would be different shapes depending upon oval or verticle.
Seems very time consuming. So there is probably some simple operation I am not envisioning.

I added an image of my lone crimped example. Just the edge of the shallow recess is visible.

--dj--Joe

St&L.jpg (35.1 KB, 24 downloads)
Last edited by derjager; 10/18/2024 04:41 PM. Reason: More rambling thoughts.

<BR>
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
fischer Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
Joe,

Like on some soldered in place reverse dies, I think there is a cut-out or indent for ease of lining up the hinge before its crimped.

Here is a good example of the crimping method starting to fail.

These Rudolf Karneth IAB's used a crimped in method of attachment until it failed.
If you look at the sides of eagles breast feather (red arrow), you can see indentation defects from the pressure used to attach the hinge.

RK crimp flawx.jpg (133.25 KB, 14 downloads)

Best Regards, fischer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
fischer Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
Here are two RK IABs I have. The frosted example must have been early production.

You can hardly see any obverse distortion around the breast feathers on the frosted white example.
Now the chrome example is shows this attachment technique failed and the hinge is soldered in place.

RK SF o.jpg (103.94 KB, 12 downloads)
RK SF r.jpg (102.18 KB, 12 downloads)
RK unpb Chrome o.jpg (122.57 KB, 12 downloads)
RK unpb Chrome r.jpg (111.39 KB, 12 downloads)
Last edited by fischer; 10/19/2024 10:05 PM.

Best Regards, fischer
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
fischer Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 194
Likes: 3
Here is another showing the hinge had to be soldered in place. We can see this is a factory retrofit and shows the finish was applied after the hinge was soldered in place.

Repair Hinge Factory o.jpg (170.34 KB, 18 downloads)
Repair Hinge Factory r.jpg (82.17 KB, 18 downloads)

Best Regards, fischer
1 member likes this: derjager
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,918
Likes: 32
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,918
Likes: 32
Don,
I never noted the pressure indents on badges before. The factory's must have caught the failed crimps through quality control and being aware of the potential for failure.

It seems to me that soldered on hinges and catches would have been better production wise than changing crimping patterns
and performing repairs. Were the trained laborer's no longer available as I have seen written?

--dj--Joe


<BR>

Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,305,073 SS Bayonets
1,798,613 Teno Insignia Set
1,168,450 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
Back to basic fact based research.
by DAMAST - 11/01/2024 11:55 PM
OstFront ring dates
by Gaspare - 11/01/2024 09:20 PM
Flag Pole Finials
by Vern - 11/01/2024 01:02 AM
The Zimmerstutzen and related objects
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 10/31/2024 09:25 PM
Some SA Rings
by Gaspare - 10/30/2024 09:04 PM
Latest New Posts
Back to basic fact based research.
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 11/02/2024 01:05 AM
1930's German Nazi Hunting Knife, D (Swaz.) B F
by DAMAST - 11/01/2024 11:08 PM
Lets see something!
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 11/01/2024 10:28 PM
OstFront ring dates
by Gaspare - 11/01/2024 09:20 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics31,760
Posts330,507
Members7,643
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
5 members (Sasha, C. Wetzel-20609, Skyline Drive, seany, DAMAST), 101 guests, and 74 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5