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I became interested in this mark after I acquired a dated 7 March 1931 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1456 (special order) Hirschfanger with the triple oval mark. The mark was not shown in my book, "German Knife and Sword Makers, 1850-1945" by J. Anthony Carter (2015 edition). I did find this mark in the GDC reference dated (1933-1935). Researching the "Hunting, Forestry, and Shooting" forum, I found a dated 1932 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1450 with added clam shell, (maybe another special order). Then I found this mark on a dated 17 March 1934 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1127 (special order). Recent research found on the Wehrmacht Awards.com forum found this mark was also used on an Eickhorn Pioneer bayonet posted by glock26 who noted "pretty uncommon" mark. Replies by JohnZ noted this mark on an KS98 bayonet and Billy G noted this mark on a sawback, Fire Officials dagger with presentation blade (no date). I suggested to Vern that this mark should be dated in the GDC reference to 1931-1935 and noted the 1931, 1932 and 1934 dated Carl Eickhorn examples and catalog numbers. I thought and noted to Vern, this mark may have been used in early 1935 but did not have the proof of an actual photo. Vern has recently changed the dates to 1931-1934. I will post the dated Carl Eickhorn examples starting with the 1934 C. E. Nr. 1127. This example is found on Germania Internation, listed as Nr. 1720 and in my opinion, it is not the Nr. 1720 but the Nr. 1127 with a straight handle with no middle bulge. My sincere thanks to Baz69 (Gary) for the "Period Reference" thread which shows 8 pages from a Carl Eickhorn catalog which Gary dates to about 1932. Personalized Hunting Knife (presentation) (Item HUNT 5-2) DESCRIPTION: This is an incredible piece, indeed. It was formerly in the famous Dr. Julian Milestone collection and is pictured on page 313 in Vol. II of Thomas Johnson's book, Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich. Johnson calls it (rare) and it most certainly is. The knife is by Carl Eickhorn Solingen and this logo with single squirrel is shown on the blade. The grip is Hirshhorn stag and on the obverse grip there is a silver scroll bearing the owner's name and date of presentation to him-March 17, 1934. On the other side is another longer scroll that translates to "Honor Gift of the German National Hunting Association." The scabbard is in brown leather. It has no apparent fastening device so it is assumed that it fit into a frog of some kind. The model number according to the Eickhorn firm was 1720. It clearly is one of the finest Bowie-style hunting weapons ever produced in the Third Reich. The liking for Bowies is historically noted as Germany and her Führer, Adolf Hitler, were deeply infatuated with the Wild West stories of Karl May and his leading character, Old Shatterhand, who is often fictionally depicted as having his trusty Bowie knife close at hand. This particular piece, although as German as sauerkraut, is also very American Wild West looking in its appearance. This is a very excellent example of this merging of Germanic excellence and nostalgic dreams of the American West. The length is 15 ¼ inches in scabbard. The blade is 8 ½ inches long. The condition of the blade is excellent, although it shows years of polishing after use. Obviously, Herr Elzner was a hunter and used it extensively in this sport of kings. Here is a chance to own an excellent and famous weapon published and well known in the hobby. We are very proud to offer this exquisite hunting knife on Germania's pages. PRICE: SOLD https://germaniainternational.com/hunting5.html C. Wetzel-20609
Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 10/09/2024 09:20 PM.
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Next was posted by Gerrit1963 on page 3 of the "Let's see something" thread.
In my opinion Gerrit posted his 1932 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1450 with added clam shell, (maybe another special order).
The blade has a beautiful etch on one side and on the other side the etch is "SCHUTZENKONIG 1932" with the C. E. triple oval mark.
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Last is my dated 7 March 1931 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1456 special order Hirschfanger with the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark.
IMG-1203.jpg (89.18 KB, 166 downloads) Dated 7 March 1931 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1456 special order Hirschfanger with the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark. IMG-1239.jpg (99.76 KB, 164 downloads) Dated 7 March 1931 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1456 special order Hirschfanger with the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark. IMG-1240.jpg (103.79 KB, 164 downloads) Dated 7 March 1931 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1456 special order Hirschfanger with the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark.
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Research is very much incomplete on this trademark.. Dates etc.... are very much incorrect.... You will have to look beyond the internet and forum posted reference. Good start
Last edited by DAMAST; 10/11/2024 03:21 PM.
Collector of Edged Weapon art.
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Apologize, I came across a little blunt in last post.
Collector of Edged Weapon art.
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Damast,
no apology is needed. I have been called "Brutally honest" by a former foreman (Chris), that I worked with at Hayes Pump, Fairfield, New Jersey.
Your comment: "Research is very much incomplete on this trademark.. Dates etc.... are very much incorrect.... You will have to look beyond the internet and forum posted reference." does hold some truth and is the reason for this thread.
And I would like to credit that it was JohnZ who I believe first coined the term "Triple Oval" on his thread "Eickhorn KS98-Triple Oval" on 11/22/2011.
NOTE quote from JohnZ:
"We first saw this TM on a police bayonet and it is posted in my Eickhorn Police Bayonet thread in this forum.
But, this baby came to me from e-ban. It shows wear, plating loss and is missing its scabbard. So, you may well ask, why would I buy this?
It is a serrated tail squirrel no CE with bent arms and long ears. It also has the 'x' above the word Solingen in the TM.
But, best of all, it has a doubled up outer oval... making this what I call a triple oval.
The last pic is the police bayo triple oval TM for comparison.
John"
Here are the photos from JohnZ and a C. E. triple oval mark on an Eickhorn Forestry cutlass posted by MRW, thread: "Eickhorn Hirschfanger", that he found was sold on eBay.
This mark was used in early (March) 1934 and what I would like to know, was this mark used in early 1935? An actual photo of a dated (1935) blade is needed.
C. Wetzel-20609
PS my sincere thanks to Damast for his period reference material that he has posted on GDC. Those old Eickhorn catalogs you have are very rare and a treat just to see the covers.
Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 10/11/2024 08:50 PM. Reason: Additional information added.
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C.Wetzel. You and most collectors are asking the wrong questions when it comes to dating Eickhorn trademarks.. There is only ONE date that matters with company trademarks. I will let you think about it. As in less than 3 minutes of looking (not on the internet) I can already say your start date is incorrect along with the end date (if there is such a date) Clue....... Yes , thank you for the compliment on a few catalogs I posted years ago now..
Last edited by DAMAST; 10/11/2024 11:57 PM.
Collector of Edged Weapon art.
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Damast,
you posted: "There is only ONE date that matters with company trademarks." is this the date of registration?
You also posted: "I can already say your start date is incorrect." If you have an actual photo of the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark on an Eickhorn edged weapon that predates 7 March 1931 let the members of GDC see it.
My interests are in dated Eickhorn edged weapons with the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark and not catalogs, letter heads or tags.
C. Wetzel-20609
Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 10/12/2024 12:40 AM.
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My mistake. I thought you wanted to know when the trademark was originally started. ( used) I'm I mistaken or are you not making a claim about the dates this trademark was used?? I did not know you collected just pictures of this trademark on blades. As that is not at all a scholarly way to do research. Looking on the internet for pictures is your research?? Correct??? What you posted here is all your research?? That's it?? My I suggest in the future not to cut and paste catalogs as referance if you have no interest in them as you have done on this thread. Please ask your mentor in Solingen if I have the goods. Since it seems I have to ALSO name drop as you constantly do. Lastly Since you have no access to period documents or( do not want to do on the ground research) as I have for years you as many others dismiss the information contained in archives and again as I said (search the internet) for items that fit your narrative.
Last edited by DAMAST; 10/12/2024 03:32 AM.
Collector of Edged Weapon art.
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Damast,
I do not just collect pictures of trademarks on blades as I do own the dated 7 March 1931 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1456 (special order) Hirschfanger. Also, I own Carl Eickhorn models Nr. 36; Nr. 227 and Nr. 791.
I also spend much of my time as a researcher on Ancestry.com and I am a contributor on the Find a Grave site. I found as a researcher on Ancestry.com that many times the text from Ancestry.com was wrong and the actual image was more accurate.
My interest for this thread is to post the actual image of the Eickhorn edged weapon with a dated blade if possible. Also, I would like to see other Eickhorn edged weapons with the triple oval mark.
And yes, I must admit I am a "name dropper". The person in Solingen is my internet friend, not my mentor. His name is mentioned as the source of the information. I found it was useful to drop names when asking farmers for permission to search for native American stone arrowheads. The farmer was more likely to give their permission if you knew other farmers or people that lived in the area.
I do own two Carl Eickhorn export catalogs dated May 1931 with the Quadruple Oval mark on the cover. This Quadruple Oval mark is listed as fig. 36 on page 171, "German Knife and Sword Makers, 1850-1945" by J. Anthony Carter (2015 edition) revised and enlarged by John Walter and Henning Ritter. Eickhorn sword tags also have the Quadruple Oval mark, and I think I have seen a 1934 letter head with the Quadruple Oval mark.
More research is needed for this thread, and I am surely not as knowledgeable as some other long time GDC members who have collected Eickhorns such as JohnZ. It was also JohnZ who mentioned the Quadruple Oval mark on his thread "Eickhorn KS98-Triple Oval" back in 2011 when the triple oval mark was thought to have been used on Eickhorn exports.
As you have stated Damast, this is only a "good start" to further research of the triple oval mark. If you have images or photos, you can post I would welcome you to contribute to this thread.
Best regards,
C. Wetzel-20609
IMG-1234.jpg (90.33 KB, 77 downloads) Dated May 1931 Carl Eickhorn export catalog with the Quadruple Oval mark on the cover (collection of C. Wetzel-20609).
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We are too far apart on knowledge of Solingen trademarks. Not going to try to reinvent the wheel with you. It is very apparent where you find your (information) and you really need to broaden your horizons. Again name dropping does not help your cause. You seem to think what is posted on the internet is gospel as it concerns trademarks. You really need to get the basics down 1st on Eickhorn trademarks before making unfounded claims about start and ending dates of trademarks based on your very limited knowledge. 1st I would suggest buying some basic references. What do you have?? The Carter book is a good start but I know it is not complete. Yes you have a few catalogs,GREAT buy more...I have 100s. Trademarks shown in catalogs is also a correct way to date trademarks.. You seem to miss this fact.. You are swimming in a very small pool of knowledge . Do the work as I have for years and also make the investment. You are going down the same path as many others have before and will end up posting opinions not concert facts. Get out of your chair do some real research..
Collector of Edged Weapon art.
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This thread is about the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark known to be found on Eickhorn weapons. Dates from 7 March 1931 to 17 March 1934 are from actual photos of Eickhorn weapons.
Page 171, "German Knife and Sword Makers, 1850-1945" by J. Anthony Carter (2015 edition) revised and enlarged by John Walter and Henning Ritter, notes: fig. 32 was recorded on a Prussian police bayonet; fig. 33 was reproduced from a 1925 advertisement; fig. 34 was printed on a 1925 catalog cover; fig. 34 was recorded from an early SA dagger and fig. 36 (Quadruple oval) from the cover of an export catalog dated May 1931.
So Damast, your statement: "Trademarks shown in catalogs is also a correct way to date trademarks. You seem to miss this fact." probably does not apply to the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark found on Eickhorn weapons.
Dates of (1931-1934) for the Carl Eickhorn triple oval may change because "Research is subject to change". An early Carl Eickhorn export catalog with the Quadruple oval mark on the cover is noted from 1 Nov. 1930 and the dated 7 March 1931 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1456 Hirschfanger weapon is very early 1931. I would not be surprised to find the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark was used on Eickhorn weapons from approximately 1930 to 1935.
C. Wetzel-20609
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As I have said you need to broaden your horizons. Besides what you have quoted from the carter book the rest of your post is total nonsense based on a uneducated opinion. You have some dated pieces you found with the triple oval trademark. OK Big deal. How does looking at 3-4 items date this trademark. I would ask your mentor in Germany this : (who does he know in U.S. or Germany who could answer this triple oval trademark question??) (What year did Eickhorn start using the Triple oval trademark???) Ask him and get back to me.. Since he is the co-author to the book you site all the time you must respect his opinion?? Your understanding of this subject is so elementary it is hard to even spend time writing this post..
Last edited by DAMAST; 10/14/2024 06:47 PM.
Collector of Edged Weapon art.
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So Damast, your statement: "Trademarks shown in catalogs is also a correct way to date trademarks. You seem to miss this fact." probably does not apply to the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark found on Eickhorn weapons.
C. Wetzel-20609 This statement again shows you have no concept of what you are posting about.. Why would it not apply???? List your unfounded, not based on facts reasons..
Collector of Edged Weapon art.
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Damast,
the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark is known to be found on Eickhorn weapons and is not known to be shown in catalogs or advertisements.
Carter's book notes there are many variations of Carl Eickhorn oval marks with some found on weapons, some found in catalogs, and some found in advertisements.
C. Wetzel-20609
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. Damast,
the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark is known to be found on Eickhorn weapons and is not known to be shown in catalogs or advertisements.
Carter's book notes there are many variations of Carl Eickhorn oval marks with some found on weapons, some found in catalogs, and some found in advertisements. C. Wetzel-20609 OK In your posts you should be saying (NOT KNOWN BY ME !) Or I (PERSONALLY HAVE NEVER SEEN) ! Or (NOT LISTED IN CARTER (HENNING) WALTER BOOK) (why do you think Henning would like to do a update??) And that makes a big difference.. Just because you don't know something, or it is not on the internet and last , it is not in the Carter Henning trademark book does not mean it is NOT DOCUMENTED BY OTHERS THROUGH SOURCE RECORDS .. As this 3 oval trademark ( IS ) in Period Catalogs in personal archives, factory source documents etc..
Last edited by DAMAST; 10/14/2024 09:16 PM.
Collector of Edged Weapon art.
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Damast,
you posted: "As this 3 oval trademark ( IS ) in Period Catalogs in personal archives, factory source documents etc.." If you are correct, then you probably know more about the dates for this triple oval mark printed on paper.
I would like to know the approximate date range of the triple oval mark on Eickhorn weapons. Damast, in your opinion what are the date ranges for this mark used on Eickhorn weapons?
C. Wetzel-20609
Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 10/14/2024 10:34 PM.
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I searched on Wittmann Antique Militaria (WAM) for an Eickhorn weapon with the Carl Eickhorn triple oval mark. One Eickhorn weapon with the triple oval mark was noted under "Dress & Etched Bayonets" #34597 Early Long Dress Bayonet-Carl Eickhorn.
Here is a partial description cropped from the beginning: "This early Dress Bayonet was produced either at the end of the Reichswehr period of (or) the beginning of the Third Reich period." and cropped from the ending: "The interesting part about this bayonet is the fact that it has the rarely seen stamping consisting of the large double oval trademark. This trademark contains the firm’s name and location inside, "Carl Eickhorn Solingen", and inside is a large rabbit (squirrel) holding a nut in his paws and having a serrated style tail. The original leather washer is gone to time. This bayonet should interest those collecting unusual trademarks."
So, I sent an email to Mr. Wittmann last night telling him about my dated 7 March 1931 Carl Eickhorn Nr. 1456 (special order) Hirschfanger with the Carl Eickhorn triple oval with 5 photos. I let Mr. Wittmann know an Eickhorn weapon with the triple oval mark was noted dated 17 March 1934. I asked Mr. Wittmann if he ever noted an Eickhorn weapon with the triple oval mark dated to 1930 or an Eickhorn weapon with the triple oval mark dated to 1935. Today I received Mr. Wittmann's reply.
"Dear Mr. Wetzel,
Thanks for the email and the pictures of your Wanderlust Prize Cutlass. Quite a piece here. It's a shame the blade is not in better condition, as the cross guard and clamshell are quite unique and interesting to view.
As to the large oval trademark, I was surprised to see from your cutlass that this logo appeared as early as 1931. We mostly see it on pieces produced about 1933 and early 1934. I am afraid that I can't help really, as I never made notes of weapons with this marking.
Nice cutlass, however.
Best,
Thomas T. Wittmann"
Mr. Wittmann who certainly keeps very busy is always kind, very helpful and entertaining on his videos and I thank him very much for his knowledge and valuable time.
C. Wetzel-20609
Last edited by C. Wetzel-20609; 10/16/2024 11:05 PM.
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