|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
Early SS daggers are in high demand and any information related to them is of interest. From most reference books we know that SS daggers were distributed through 3 district centers in Munich - I, Berlin - III and Dresden - II. The authors did not provide documentary evidence of this. Probably the authors decided so by analogy with the distribution of SA daggers, through regional SA groups. In their opinion, these numbers corresponded to the SS-Abschnitts numbers. But how correct is this version, let's take a closer look at this version.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
1 member likes this:
bushido |
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
If you look at the map of Germany, all three of the mentioned centers are concentrated not far from each other. At the same time, a significant part of Germany in the western part does not have such centers. It turns out that daggers from Solingen were sent across the entire country, in order to then send them back again to be issued to SS members who served in the area of the western border. Given German thriftiness and ordinary logic, this looks at least strange. Especially if, according to the order of the SA headquarters, the reimbursement of expenses for the delivery of SA and SS daggers (!) is borne by the SA headquarters.
The choice of only three centers and their connection with the Abschnites, according to the authors of the reference books, and not with the Oberabschnites, looks a little strange. The question arises as to why, if the order for daggers was made by regional SA groups, it is logical that SS daggers would also have the designations of SA groups or Oberabschnitt SS. But then the marking would be similar to the marking of SA groups in the form of abbreviations, not numbers.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
1 member likes this:
bushido |
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
It is worth remembering that before the Night of the Long Knives, the SS was completely subordinate to the SA command. Therefore, we have many orders issued by the Chief of Staff of the SA, which also mention SS daggers. The SA headquarters ordered a certain number of daggers, including SS daggers. The SA headquarters also compensated the costs of transporting daggers to regional groups. This is confirmed by documents.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
1 member likes this:
bushido |
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
Let's look at some SS daggers with numbers I, II, III. Thanks to the SS order on the need to apply a personal SS number to the daggers, we can trace the owner's place of service and compare it with the point of issue according to the version described in the reference books. As an example, I took several daggers whose owners were identified. The places of service of the owners were taken as of 1934.
1. Kempka Erich, SS#2803. The dagger was published in the book by T. Wittmann. It has the number I on the guard, which indicates that the center is in Munich. But as far as is known, Hitler's personal driver in 1934 served in the LSSAH in Berlin.
2. Butz Ludwig, SS#2924. The dagger was also published in Wittmann's book and also has the number I. Butz served in the 10th SS Standard in 1934, which was stationed in the SS Oberabschnitt Rhein.
3. Feldmann Gerhard, SS#3681. The dagger from a private collection has the number I on the guard. The owner served in the 13th SS Standard in 1934, which was also in Oberabschnitt Rhein.
4. Koetzold Hermann, SS#76637. Dagger with the number II (Dresden). Koetzold served in the 5th SS Standard in Oberabschnitt Rhein-Westmark
5. Grosser Rudi, SS#13657. Dagger with the number III (Berlin). The owner served in the 47th SS Sturm from Oberabschnitt Fulda-Werra.
As you can see, none of the SS men had the issuing center in the same region of service. And even in the case of Kempka, instead of the center in Berlin, his dagger had number I in Munich. Based on this, it can be argued that the old version is not true.
Last edited by den70; 10/09/2024 11:36 PM.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
I think the answer should also be sought in the same orders, where SS daggers are listed in a separate line by the RFSS department. In my opinion, the numbers on the guards indicate the batch in which the order for SS daggers was fulfilled. Many collectors know that the guard markings are distributed rather unevenly. The most common daggers are those with numbers I and III. But daggers with the number II are the smallest group. The answer to this question is given by documents from the SA headquarters. As it turns out, these documents were published quite a long time ago, but for some reason they have not been given any importance until now. According to the documents, the SA headquarters placed 3 orders for the production of service and honor daggers in Solingen. All three orders had different quantities, which coincides with how often certain daggers are found among collectors. Daggers with the number II are rare, since 5 times fewer daggers of the second batch were ordered.
Of course, the presented version requires additional verification and confirmation by documents, which, I hope, can be found soon. Colleagues, I would like to hear your criticism, perhaps my reasoning is wrong or requires supplementation.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6 |
Interesting information. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the crossguard stamps I, II and III thought to be districts are instead batch numbers for SS daggers. However, the three orders you show only total 53,900 daggers, which seems far too low for the actual number of early SS daggers issued.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
Absolutely right. We need to add about 16,000 SS Rohm. We should not forget that some private orders were also issued with dedications to Himmler and others. I think no more than 75k SS daggers were issued during this period. Considering that this is only the first half of the year, it is not so little. I do not know how correct the figures given in Wikipedia are, here is the number of SS members by periods. In the period we are interested in, 33 - 50k, in 39 - 240k. Based on this, we can assume that in 34 there were no more than 100k members. Which is quite consistent with the numbers in the orders for daggers.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6 |
Where did you get your information regarding SS Rohm daggers? The sources I have read are all consistent in the number 9,900.
As for the stamp on the SS guard, you have to wonder why they were even stamped at all. For SA daggers it makes more sense. There were many SA Gruppe and each one placed an order for a specific number of daggers to meet its need. The Gruppe stamp would identify where the daggers were destined. That makes sense for shipping purposes. But for SS daggers, if the stamp represented a district distribution site it doesn't indicate the destination of the dagger or any other useful information. So what's the purpose of the stamp? If it was a batch number as you are suggesting, who stamped them? The manufacturer? Why stamp them at all? The numbers I, II or III don't give you any information about the number of daggers ordered or what their destination is. Also, if the stampings represent batch numbers, that presupposes the knowledge that there would be future batches.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
The source of the information in Fischer's book. He cites many original documents. I am inclined to believe him.
We know from documents and not only in Fischer that in Solingen the acceptance of finished daggers was carried out. This control was carried out by authorized representatives of the SA, not from among the manufacturers (Fischer also has these documents). In the early stages, the quality standards and acceptance criteria for SA and SS daggers were the same. Therefore, the stamp of the SA group (or as it is usually called GAU) was a kind of acceptance stamp. A similar stamp is also on the SS daggers, confirming that this dagger has been accepted by the control body and is ready for issue. Even if we do not take into account the documents mentioned by Fischer, we can consider the document with the number of Rem daggers (first batch), which everyone cites. It indicates the number of SA daggers broken down by groups. And the SS daggers are listed in one line. If these numbers corresponded to some specific distribution centers, it is logical that the SA headquarters order would have 3 lines on SS daggers. But there is only one line, which confirms my version.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6 |
So to clarify... where exactly are you suggesting that SS daggers were stamped? At the manufacturer by a representative of the SA prior to acceptance, or a "regional quartermaster's office" (the term used by Siegert) prior to distribution? For that matter, where were SA daggers stamped in your opinion?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
I cannot comment on what Siegert wrote, since his books contain information without citing sources.
I believe that the acceptance stamp (SA group, SS batch number) was placed by authorized representatives of the SA, before sending to the customer. This is how quality control was carried out. There are several documents that talk about SA representatives who accepted finished products. I do not have information about where exactly these representatives were stationed. Most likely, there were several such places, at large factories such as Eichhorn and a separate office where small manufacturers brought their products.
What is your opinion? Do you think that these are the numbers of RZM centers, SS centers or some other option? I would like to hear the opinion of other colleagues, their knowledge is more extensive and they probably have some additional documents.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6 |
I have not settled on an opinion.
In 1934, the RZM was involved in the procurement and distribution of just about everything being produced, including daggers. It makes sense to me that it was involved in the process of stamping the numbers. But as I previously stated, there seems to be no obvious meaning to the stamp other than the designation shown in the list of your OP.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,055 Likes: 6 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,722 Likes: 2
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,722 Likes: 2 |
The source of the information in Fischer's book. He cites many original documents. I am inclined to believe him.
We know from documents and not only in Fischer that in Solingen the acceptance of finished daggers was carried out. This control was carried out by authorized representatives of the SA, not from among the manufacturers (Fischer also has these documents). I would not trust Wikipedia as a viable source and can you tell me what volume and pages in Fishers that states 16000 Rohms were produced? ....and many of those production numbers SA and SS were assumed in observations only of what has been encountered in sightings which are not exact but estimated. see this thread here as an example of SA dagger production numbers...the same could be the same for SS daggers produced...but I wait for your reply to my request > https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/sa-d...n-numbers-vs-frequency-sightings-834427/Regards Larry
Last edited by Larry C; 10/18/2024 04:04 PM.
Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
Larry, thanks for joining the discussion. I'll try to answer some questions if I understood them correctly.
The number of Rohm daggers is given in the latest edition of Fisher, 2012. Part II, Volume 1, page 75. On pages 54, 56 and 63 of the same volume, orders for three batches of service daggers are published. According to his research, about 820k SA daggers and 70k SS daggers were ordered in the first half of 1934. This figure includes both service daggers and honor daggers. There is a question about the number of honor daggers ordered in the third batch. Since the last batch was ordered on June 16, 1934, the daggers were not issued or perhaps partially. It is quite possible that factory-ground Rohm, these are products of the third batch. Since in June there was an order from the OSAF that minor repairs (scabbards and handles) should be carried out by the workshops themselves. Since overhead costs make up a significant part. (See Fisher 2012, 2/1 p.67). Immediately after the liquidation of Rohm, the question of the fate of the daggers was acute. This topic was raised both in the press and in the correspondence of factories that were interested in whether they should continue to produce daggers or not. This concerned not only honorary daggers but also service daggers. As of September 1934, the question of producing new daggers had not been resolved (Fischer 2012, 2/1 p.70). Based on these documents, it can be said that for the whole of 1934, slightly more than indicated in three orders were produced.
Larry, I agree that Wikipedia sometimes contains nonsense. But in this case, the number of SS members up to 100k seems quite logical to me. This only takes into account those who were members before 1934. The order of the OSAF of June 16, 1934 (Fischer 2012, part 2, volume 1, p. 66) states that there were only 2,600,000 SA and SS members as of 1934. This number does not include candidates. These are the people who were supposed to be given daggers. Therefore, it seems to me that the figure of 70k daggers is quite realistic. It is quite possible that if the Rohm had not been liquidated, at least 2 or even 4 more orders would have been made.
I again completely agree that rarity ratings as well as the assessment of the number of surviving daggers are based on modern information, and very subjective information. Therefore, it is incorrect to judge the number of daggers issued based on this. Especially in the case of SA and SS daggers, when they do not have numbers, with rare exceptions. The same dagger, if it does not have any special features (numbers, engravings, serious defects) could be counted several times.
Thanks for the link, I somehow missed your topic. I will read it and return based on new information.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,722 Likes: 2
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,722 Likes: 2 |
Thankyou Den for the page numbers ...I am currently absorbing what has been documented and I will post my thoughts once I am finished. Its very eye opening.
Best Larry
Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9
|
OP
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 304 Likes: 9 |
Larry, excellent. You know that often the view becomes blurred when you constantly look at something and are obsessed with an idea. Therefore, a fresh look will help to find weak points. Look at all the documents in this volume, this is pp. 23-99. Unfortunately, when printing the last edition, one section was missed, devoted to SS. I asked colleagues, unfortunately, in their copies the same thing. I think there could be documents there that could provide additional information.
Buy Casberg sketches.
|
1 member likes this:
Larry C |
|
|
Forums42
Topics31,760
Posts330,507
Members7,643
|
Most Online5,900 Dec 19th, 2019
|
|
|
|