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Its good to study old silver. Silverware, silver jewelry etc. The more you see the better it'll help you when buying your military theme ring..


https://www.smpub.com/cgi-bin/ubb/Ultimate.cgi

Get to this site and look at:

- Continental / International silver

- General Silver forum

- Silver Jewelry

- New Members Post Here

- Silver Ephemera and Documentation


- * There are way more areas to look at so go ahead and have a look see!

Thanks for posting, Gaspare. It will be helpful.

Interesting forum, thanks Gaspare. Here's another one that is good for identifying silver hallmarks:

https://www.925-1000.com/index.html

Another good link. Thanks Stephen !

Yes they are very good,, thanks Stephen..

https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_a1884.html

Remember with our rings,,, the moon and crown that was mandatory on jewelry. Well with our pieces they were exempt during the 3rd reich on small items , even many of the bigger items did not have them during the period. .

Also IF you ever decide to ask a question about a piece from your collection make sure you don't show a swas or SS runes,,,they not to cool on that.. A few years ago I sent in Otto Gahrs hallmark.. I got a thank you but they never listed it!!

Just for the info....... here an old fleamarket , German ring with moon-crown stamp .

Benten,,,although not military theme,,,,a great ring! A high end piece probably a custom order from a Jewler! Don't think an WW1 ring as it has a art deco appearence. The jewlery just decided to stamp it.. They were exempt,,,but if the maker wanted to get one in there they'd do it! Really a beauty of a ring,,great catch!!

I'm repeating my first post here because I had an email this a.m. asking for a silver forum... Some guys their search function doesn't work either, or just are not good at it.. Plenty to read and look at on this site!



Its good to study old silver. Silverware, silver jewelry etc. The more you see the better it'll help you when buying your military theme ring..


https://www.smpub.com/cgi-bin/ubb/Ultimate.cgi

Get to this site and look at:

- Continental / International silver

- General Silver forum

- Silver Jewelry

- New Members Post Here

- Silver Ephemera and Documentation


- * There are way more areas to look at so go ahead and have a look see!

Thanks Gaspare. Here's another one that is useful specifically if you're interested in German silver hallmarks:

https://www.silvercollection.eu/germansilverhallmark2.html

Testing tools for silver and gold from the Utecht Essay Office, that existed from the19th century till 1986. On some is stamped the amount content of silver, zinc and copper, if I’m correct.

Some tools have silver or gold testing ends .

You can see which have a high copper content ... the surface turned unwanted in a green corrosion.

-

well the green can be good! It's telling you what is in the alloy! WHY is it when you wear a ring marked 835 all day and night into the next few your finger will be fine,,,and why with other with same mark 835 will turn your finger blackish or greenish after a days wear?!?


I don't know enough to say for sure but - IF something is stamped 800 on it what is the other metals its 'alloyed' with to make up the rest of the base content.. Can any metal be added in??..

And please,,anyone that knows again please jump in and correct and or inform us to understand... I know Hapur known,,and 'Ed' the watchmaker,, Vern too, but they're busy...

- So, I take it that the tests are to see what the other metals are.. Silver you can add copper to that I know,,,,but can you add lets say zinc? Iron? does it have to stay with nonferrous? [not magnetic] .. - * Benten thanks for posting this. Its important and we should know a little at least about it..
It says 19th century but wouldn't doubt if it was known/testing, etc. in the 1700s!

Typically, silver for jewelry use is alloyed with copper. Nickel is used for applications needing a harder alloy. But silver can be alloyed with nickel, tin, zinc, cadmium, lead or several other nonferrous metals. Any silver alloy can turn you green or black due to the reaction of the alloy metal to your skin in the presence of moisture. Usually green is a reaction to copper or nickel while black is reacting to tin, zinc, or lead. The higher the silver content number, the less likely to see a discoloration.

Just an added note - some individuals tend to sweat more and/or have a more acidic sweat. This will cause any discoloration to occur faster and more frequently.

Vern,, thanks for helping out.. OK, so even skin acidity comes in to play!!

As far as content etc. So its got to be nonferrous material to alloy in with the silver. And,,, we all kind of know the higher the content the better. I'd say if I'm correct 900 and above would be ideal.. And,, I guess thats why it seems everyone has settled on Sterling [.925]... So the rings we collect are mainly 830 ,835,

The questions:
- Does it always have to be a nonferrous metal to add in for the alloy?
- With 'our' rings I don't think nickel would be used in the alloy because it had military use's itself.. Maybe Cadmium too. What would your guess be for the material used in our rings - tin, lead, zinc, etc.
-Is it true that IF a ring is 835 in order to 'join' the back and make a seam you would have to use the next higher silver alloy? So with 835 they'd have to use at least .900 to join the band together?
-Kind of the same question,,a 835 ring that has a cartouche added on or decorative pieces the next higher content need to be the solder?

Members,, IF you have a question get on up and make your post... Vern, thanks again for responding for us....,G.

I have never heard of using ferrous metal in a silver alloy. Colt advertised silver steel being used in some of their revolvers back in the 1860s but that was only 4% silver added to the steel.

Since copper and most the other listed metals are strategic materials, I would think the most common alloy for rings of that period would be zinc. Should be easy to test.

Silver solder is rated as hard, medium, and soft. The normal alloy used for each is 80% silver/20% copper for hard solder, 65% silver/20% copper/15% zinc for medium solder, and 50% silver/20% copper/30% zinc for soft solder.

Vern,, thanks for the breakdown of the then following solder info.... . Seems logical to use .900 for an 835 piece.. . Wouldn't need so much polishing and blending in afterwards either....

Well for me then,, its the tin and zinc that would offer the most trouble to the wearer of the ring.. I'm thinking copper and the lead would be in need for the war effort ,,and cadmium I know whats its used for now,,,but, I'm not sure of back then what was its use[?]

- * Vern,, would Cad by itself turn a finger blackish/greenish etc. in a ring??


Again members, any technological info Vern should be able to help us,, SO,,,ask away.. Vern, thanks SO much for sharing your knowledge with us!.., G.

Actually, hard solder is 800, medium is 650 and soft is 500. Some jewelers will use filings from the piece they want to solder mixed with borax, but care must be exercised to not over heat and melt the piece being soldered

Cadmium in an alloy would not discolor skin, but usually is not a major part of the alloy. In that time period, bismuth would probably be more common.

I can only speak of the period we study and the way it was done then.

Let me start with this and not about silver plating on base medals. First off silver is rarely found in its native form, i.e. most silver is supplied as a finished metal, but mostly as ore combined with sulfur, arsenic, antimony, copper, lead, zinc, and other metals. So if the process isn't as good you could find these base medals in your finished product when it is tested.

So the extraction depends on the amalgamation process; Most know this already, so the silver is separated from its compounds by rusting the ore with suitable additives and is absorbed by mercury. The silver is obtained by evaporating the mercury. Of the base metals, only copper is used for silver alloys, although its red color has an adverse effect on the alloys. When alloyed, silver and copper form an intimate mixture (eutectic), which always consists of 720//000 Fs. and 280/000 Cu. With a higher silver content, pure silver crystals separate out within the eutectic, which improve the color. With alloys below 720/000, on the other hand, pure copper crystals separate out, which give the silver a reddish shimmer. For genuine silverware, only the higher alloys are considered, mostly silver with a fineness of 800, 830, 900 or 935, the rest is always copper. Best!

I just wanted to add to what Vern stated.

We all know that silver and silver plated items will tarnish a yellowish to brownish color if not protected or coated with a varnish solution. And when we clean silver on a cloth it is blackish in color, otherwise dark in color, so mixed with sweat would cause the transfer of this discoloration to the skin. Best!

G,

I just noticed your question about Cadmium. I don't know if this will answer your question. Again as it applies to what we collect during the period we collect. It's an alloy metal for gold/silver solders and provided strength to cooper and zinc. During the war years it replaced war tin solders. To add to that, gold/silver solders are alloys that usually have the same fineness as the goods, but must have a "lower melting point" than the metal of the goods. For this purpose, part of the silver and copper is replaced by zinc or cadmium, which is a metal similar to zinc. Best!

Hi Mikee, much thanks for the info..

Gets you dizzy reading in this heat All the different silver contents and other metals there seems to be a small variety of ways to solder [with stick, with filings, etc. ] . Seems though each will in some way leave a mark on your finger if not matched right and done right.. From maunfactuere though a simple join seam is always nice and neat..

Also seems most resizing's were to make smaller.............

G,

"Seems though each will in some way leave a mark on your finger if not matched right and done right"

Imo, I don't think we can say that staining is due "only" to solder, because the solder used is usually of the same fineness. But rather what the ring is made up of in it's entirety. Along with the tarnishing/chemical reaction, in other words patina. We also have to remember as well, a lot of people are allergic to certain metals. Just for info,German law speaks about solder on jewelry. Best!

Yes I agree Mikee not just from the solder,,,, once you have an 800 content or even 835 there will be a certain amount of tin alloyed in it as well as other metals it will leave a mark on most people's finger if worn long enough or an amount of sweat etc.

Hey G,

According to all the material I have during the war years WW1-WW2 in "Germany". For silver, the rest is always copper. Because of the solder small amounts of Zink or Cadmium. And maybe some small traces of other metals due to the refinement process of the silver and cooper.. I don't believe a mixture of other metals were introduced purposely to alloy with silver to make up a ring. Doesn't make any sense to me for a number of reasons, but you never know. Silver plate is a different story. It would be interesting to have some Silver rings analyzed using PMI. I can't speak about other countries. Best!

Mikee, a lot of what was written was wrong. Especially when it came to jewelry.. In some adverts in the trade booklets is plenty of wrong information... Seems the smaller the piece, the inexpensive pieces they wrote what they thought the buyers wanted to hear! Copper like silver were precious materials for the wars..

- you know I don't think anyone has ever done comprehensive research on solder used.. Maybe sometime in the future!!